I agree....plus the glue is whats keeping it all together/sealed anyways....that "cardboard/fiber encap is just along for the ride and to center the whole contraption in the can....you can usually take a metal endcap and pull it from the glue most of the time too......
So, Fram filters...why the bad rap?
- Thread starter ForceFedMopar
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: DSparks
I agree....plus the glue is whats keeping it all together/sealed anyways....that "cardboard/fiber encap is just along for the ride and to center the whole contraption in the can....you can usually take a metal endcap and pull it from the glue most of the time too......
There is no doubt that the gluing of the media to the fiber end caps is very strong. If you try to separate them at the glued area, you end up destroying the media before the glue lets go.
I agree....plus the glue is whats keeping it all together/sealed anyways....that "cardboard/fiber encap is just along for the ride and to center the whole contraption in the can....you can usually take a metal endcap and pull it from the glue most of the time too......
There is no doubt that the gluing of the media to the fiber end caps is very strong. If you try to separate them at the glued area, you end up destroying the media before the glue lets go.
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
It never ceases to amaze me how many people are perfectly content to pump their precious engine's life blood oil through a thin paper based media to filter it, but if Fram dares to hold that same thin paper based filtering media in place with a much thicker, stronger and rigid paper based endcap they will scream foul. Makes absolutely no sense at all.
Bahahahaha.
Awesome.
Yep. I gotta agree the end cap point is laughable. On the tough guards I use and cut open the end cap is so well glued to the media it comes off in very small chunks.
How do I know?
Because I rip them apart so I can unfold the pleats and see what's caught in there.
The metal end caps are far easier to remove believe it or not. Some aren't even glued,or glued so poorly the just come off easy.
Perhaps by design..........
It never ceases to amaze me how many people are perfectly content to pump their precious engine's life blood oil through a thin paper based media to filter it, but if Fram dares to hold that same thin paper based filtering media in place with a much thicker, stronger and rigid paper based endcap they will scream foul. Makes absolutely no sense at all.
Bahahahaha.
Awesome.
Yep. I gotta agree the end cap point is laughable. On the tough guards I use and cut open the end cap is so well glued to the media it comes off in very small chunks.
How do I know?
Because I rip them apart so I can unfold the pleats and see what's caught in there.
The metal end caps are far easier to remove believe it or not. Some aren't even glued,or glued so poorly the just come off easy.
Perhaps by design..........
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Im saying that if they used metal end caps, this point would be mute...
Deaf, too, right?
Im saying that if they used metal end caps, this point would be mute...
Deaf, too, right?
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Yes. The only reason fram uses cardboard is because it is the cheapest material available that has any resembelance of functionality and it helps lower their cost of manufacture. All they would have to do is use metal instead of cardboard and WALLAH! They would instantly regain a plethora of the consumer base that cares more about their vehicles than to use filters made of construction paper.
And by the way, I use many filters, all of which contain metal end caps...
Are you basing your assumptions off of your gut feeling? Lol.
Yeah it doesn't look like he did much market research on that.
I can imagine he says "Wallah!" everytime he pulls something new out.
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Yes. The only reason fram uses cardboard is because it is the cheapest material available that has any resembelance of functionality and it helps lower their cost of manufacture. All they would have to do is use metal instead of cardboard and WALLAH! They would instantly regain a plethora of the consumer base that cares more about their vehicles than to use filters made of construction paper.
And by the way, I use many filters, all of which contain metal end caps...
Are you basing your assumptions off of your gut feeling? Lol.
Yeah it doesn't look like he did much market research on that.
I can imagine he says "Wallah!" everytime he pulls something new out.
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
How much cheaper is a fiber end cap than a metal end cap?
How much cheaper is a metal end cap than a fiber end cap?
Everyone is speculating.
I doubt either costs more than a few cents and are probably interchangeable from a cost standpoint.
Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
How much cheaper is a fiber end cap than a metal end cap?
How much cheaper is a metal end cap than a fiber end cap?
Everyone is speculating.
I doubt either costs more than a few cents and are probably interchangeable from a cost standpoint.
My dad and I always ran Fram for years. Recently I had a negative experience.
I've changed the oil 4 times since I've owned my 86' Ram.
2 filters were STP (ecores) I actually have a (cut open) thread.
1 was a Purulator. The most recent a Fram PH3600.
Long story short, the slant 6 engine the oil filter stands straight up. Every filter I removed was full of oil. Except the Fram.
Every morning the slant would tick for 10 seconds with the Fram, this recent STP. Every other filter, and my current STP, No ticking whatsoever.
You be the judge, but I will not run another Fram on my Ram anymore.
I've changed the oil 4 times since I've owned my 86' Ram.
2 filters were STP (ecores) I actually have a (cut open) thread.
1 was a Purulator. The most recent a Fram PH3600.
Long story short, the slant 6 engine the oil filter stands straight up. Every filter I removed was full of oil. Except the Fram.
Every morning the slant would tick for 10 seconds with the Fram, this recent STP. Every other filter, and my current STP, No ticking whatsoever.
You be the judge, but I will not run another Fram on my Ram anymore.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Yes. The only reason fram uses cardboard is because it is the cheapest material available that has any resembelance of functionality and it helps lower their cost of manufacture. All they would have to do is use metal instead of cardboard and WALLAH! They would instantly regain a plethora of the consumer base that cares more about their vehicles than to use filters made of construction paper.
And by the way, I use many filters, all of which contain metal end caps...
Are you basing your assumptions off of your gut feeling? Lol.
Yeah it doesn't look like he did much market research on that.
I can imagine he says "Wallah!" everytime he pulls something new out.
I'm not going to feed this argument any longer. If you guys want to use an OCOD, be my guest. OP I have changed my mind, Fram gets a bad rap for their cardboard endcaps and some of the obnoxious consumers who use them.
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Yes. The only reason fram uses cardboard is because it is the cheapest material available that has any resembelance of functionality and it helps lower their cost of manufacture. All they would have to do is use metal instead of cardboard and WALLAH! They would instantly regain a plethora of the consumer base that cares more about their vehicles than to use filters made of construction paper.
And by the way, I use many filters, all of which contain metal end caps...
Are you basing your assumptions off of your gut feeling? Lol.
Yeah it doesn't look like he did much market research on that.
I can imagine he says "Wallah!" everytime he pulls something new out.
I'm not going to feed this argument any longer. If you guys want to use an OCOD, be my guest. OP I have changed my mind, Fram gets a bad rap for their cardboard endcaps and some of the obnoxious consumers who use them.
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Yes. The only reason fram uses cardboard is because it is the cheapest material available that has any resembelance of functionality and it helps lower their cost of manufacture. All they would have to do is use metal instead of cardboard and WALLAH! They would instantly regain a plethora of the consumer base that cares more about their vehicles than to use filters made of construction paper.
And by the way, I use many filters, all of which contain metal end caps...
Are you basing your assumptions off of your gut feeling? Lol.
Yeah it doesn't look like he did much market research on that.
I can imagine he says "Wallah!" everytime he pulls something new out.
I'm not going to feed this argument any longer. If you guys want to use an OCOD, be my guest. OP I have changed my mind, Fram gets a bad rap for their cardboard endcaps and some of the obnoxious consumers who use them.
You're not going to feed the argument anymore, but you took that last jab? Grow up my friend. You are on the typical losing end of a civil disagreement: you ran out of facts so you went to the name calling. Go back under your bridge.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Yes. The only reason fram uses cardboard is because it is the cheapest material available that has any resembelance of functionality and it helps lower their cost of manufacture. All they would have to do is use metal instead of cardboard and WALLAH! They would instantly regain a plethora of the consumer base that cares more about their vehicles than to use filters made of construction paper.
And by the way, I use many filters, all of which contain metal end caps...
Are you basing your assumptions off of your gut feeling? Lol.
Yeah it doesn't look like he did much market research on that.
I can imagine he says "Wallah!" everytime he pulls something new out.
I'm not going to feed this argument any longer. If you guys want to use an OCOD, be my guest. OP I have changed my mind, Fram gets a bad rap for their cardboard endcaps and some of the obnoxious consumers who use them.
You're not going to feed the argument anymore, but you took that last jab? Grow up my friend. You are on the typical losing end of a civil disagreement: you ran out of facts so you went to the name calling. Go back under your bridge.
Originally Posted By: IGotYourBack
My dad and I always ran Fram for years. Recently I had a negative experience.
I've changed the oil 4 times since I've owned my 86' Ram.
2 filters were STP (ecores) I actually have a (cut open) thread.
1 was a Purulator. The most recent a Fram PH3600.
Long story short, the slant 6 engine the oil filter stands straight up. Every filter I removed was full of oil. Except the Fram.
Every morning the slant would tick for 10 seconds with the Fram, this recent STP. Every other filter, and my current STP, No ticking whatsoever.
You be the judge, but I will not run another Fram on my Ram anymore.
Now there is a very good, rational reason not to use one. I commend you sir. I have had the same problem on my Jeep and many high quality, well regarded filters will give me start up noise. So I don't use them, not a knock on the filters they just aren't a match for my application.
One of the filters that does work for me is the Fram Tough Guard. The orange can of similar construction does not, go figure. Your Dodge would probably do very well with a Motorcraft "S" series filter if you ever care to try one.
My dad and I always ran Fram for years. Recently I had a negative experience.
I've changed the oil 4 times since I've owned my 86' Ram.
2 filters were STP (ecores) I actually have a (cut open) thread.
1 was a Purulator. The most recent a Fram PH3600.
Long story short, the slant 6 engine the oil filter stands straight up. Every filter I removed was full of oil. Except the Fram.
Every morning the slant would tick for 10 seconds with the Fram, this recent STP. Every other filter, and my current STP, No ticking whatsoever.
You be the judge, but I will not run another Fram on my Ram anymore.
Now there is a very good, rational reason not to use one. I commend you sir. I have had the same problem on my Jeep and many high quality, well regarded filters will give me start up noise. So I don't use them, not a knock on the filters they just aren't a match for my application.
One of the filters that does work for me is the Fram Tough Guard. The orange can of similar construction does not, go figure. Your Dodge would probably do very well with a Motorcraft "S" series filter if you ever care to try one.
Originally Posted By: jk_636
While I'm writing them a strongly worded letter perhaps we could discuss something more pleasant. How did those Cowboys play today
Well enough to get their butts kicked by the Niners who have suffered some serious personnel losses because the personnel was STUPID.
Harbaugh's failure is to not enforce team standards of behavior. In Ronnie Lott's day, the players enforced that stuff. Can you imaging having to face up to Ronnie Lott after being egregiously stupid?
Oh by the way...Purolator Classic or OCOD?
Maple or rosewood?
While I'm writing them a strongly worded letter perhaps we could discuss something more pleasant. How did those Cowboys play today
Well enough to get their butts kicked by the Niners who have suffered some serious personnel losses because the personnel was STUPID.
Harbaugh's failure is to not enforce team standards of behavior. In Ronnie Lott's day, the players enforced that stuff. Can you imaging having to face up to Ronnie Lott after being egregiously stupid?
Oh by the way...Purolator Classic or OCOD?
Maple or rosewood?
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Here's another example from a recently posted TG. Again, the 2nd picture shows exactly what I was talking about, with the media collapsing below the center tube. The design of the filter is that the end cap cover the center tube and serve as the gasket for the bypass/spring assembly and the ADBV.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3470963/Fram_TG3506_Cut_Open#Post3470963
The 2nd photo in that link is hard to see much of anything. But as mentioned earlier, the only seal that matters is between the end cap material and the ADBV and bypass valve assy. The end caps don't even really have to cover the center tube to seal around the hole in the end caps. If media itself was strong enough to take all the flow force and the compression from the spring in the dome end of the filter, you wouldn't even need a center tube.
Here's another example from a recently posted TG. Again, the 2nd picture shows exactly what I was talking about, with the media collapsing below the center tube. The design of the filter is that the end cap cover the center tube and serve as the gasket for the bypass/spring assembly and the ADBV.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3470963/Fram_TG3506_Cut_Open#Post3470963
The 2nd photo in that link is hard to see much of anything. But as mentioned earlier, the only seal that matters is between the end cap material and the ADBV and bypass valve assy. The end caps don't even really have to cover the center tube to seal around the hole in the end caps. If media itself was strong enough to take all the flow force and the compression from the spring in the dome end of the filter, you wouldn't even need a center tube.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
The 2nd photo in that link is hard to see much of anything. But as mentioned earlier, the only seal that matters is between the end cap material and the ADBV and bypass valve assy. The end caps don't even really have to cover the center tube to seal around the hole in the end caps. If media itself was strong enough to take all the flow force and the compression from the spring in the dome end of the filter, you wouldn't even need a center tube.
"There's no such thing as ghosts, there's no such thing as ghosts, there's....."
I believe you have at least one person convinced.
The 2nd photo in that link is hard to see much of anything. But as mentioned earlier, the only seal that matters is between the end cap material and the ADBV and bypass valve assy. The end caps don't even really have to cover the center tube to seal around the hole in the end caps. If media itself was strong enough to take all the flow force and the compression from the spring in the dome end of the filter, you wouldn't even need a center tube.
"There's no such thing as ghosts, there's no such thing as ghosts, there's....."
I believe you have at least one person convinced.
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
The 2nd photo in that link is hard to see much of anything. But as mentioned earlier, the only seal that matters is between the end cap material and the ADBV and bypass valve assy. The end caps don't even really have to cover the center tube to seal around the hole in the end caps. If media itself was strong enough to take all the flow force and the compression from the spring in the dome end of the filter, you wouldn't even need a center tube.
"There's no such thing as ghosts, there's no such thing as ghosts, there's....."
I believe you have at least one person convinced.
It's a very simple concept ... the seal is between the end cap and ADBV & bypass valve. Center tube has zero to do with the sealing of oil flow. I'm sure others who understand this will "get it".
And yes, if the filter is subjected to lots of moisture in the oil the pleats and the end caps could warp and possible cause the seal to be compromised, but keep in mind the leaf spring is holding the sealing areas tight, so the end caps could still warp from moisture and the seal still remain intact due to the leaf spring pressure. I know it's a lot to "grasp", but it's really quite simple.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
The 2nd photo in that link is hard to see much of anything. But as mentioned earlier, the only seal that matters is between the end cap material and the ADBV and bypass valve assy. The end caps don't even really have to cover the center tube to seal around the hole in the end caps. If media itself was strong enough to take all the flow force and the compression from the spring in the dome end of the filter, you wouldn't even need a center tube.
"There's no such thing as ghosts, there's no such thing as ghosts, there's....."
I believe you have at least one person convinced.
It's a very simple concept ... the seal is between the end cap and ADBV & bypass valve. Center tube has zero to do with the sealing of oil flow. I'm sure others who understand this will "get it".
And yes, if the filter is subjected to lots of moisture in the oil the pleats and the end caps could warp and possible cause the seal to be compromised, but keep in mind the leaf spring is holding the sealing areas tight, so the end caps could still warp from moisture and the seal still remain intact due to the leaf spring pressure. I know it's a lot to "grasp", but it's really quite simple.
In SA our Fram filters are all metal parts but cost about 10$ in your currency and is comparable in price to others makes sold here.Maybe a bit steep for you guys to pay if I look at your pricing.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
But as mentioned earlier, the only seal that matters is between the end cap material and the ADBV and bypass valve assy. The end caps don't even really have to cover the center tube to seal around the hole in the end caps. If media itself was strong enough to take all the flow force and the compression from the spring in the dome end of the filter, you wouldn't even need a center tube.
I will try to clarify what I believe is being said:
If the centre tube protrudes past the media end caps, which form the seal, the ADBV will be sealing against the metal of the tube, NOT the media of the end-cap. Obviously the centre tube lacks filtering ability, so if this is the case, there will be unfiltered oil passing through the gap between the ADBV and the top of the filter, which it is supposed to be sealing against.
Now of course if the centre tube was not present and the media had enough rigidity to not require it, this would not be an issue, but as you already noted, this isn't the case.
I can see two sources of this "issue":
1. The media is short in the first place/centre tube too long
2. The media compresses/distorts/twists, making it shorter, exposing a bit of the centre tube
I've seen #2 in person with the TG that came off my sister's Explorer. End caps were severely deformed and the media was extremely twisted/wavy. There was no way the ADBV was sealing against the end cap on that filter.
But as mentioned earlier, the only seal that matters is between the end cap material and the ADBV and bypass valve assy. The end caps don't even really have to cover the center tube to seal around the hole in the end caps. If media itself was strong enough to take all the flow force and the compression from the spring in the dome end of the filter, you wouldn't even need a center tube.
I will try to clarify what I believe is being said:
If the centre tube protrudes past the media end caps, which form the seal, the ADBV will be sealing against the metal of the tube, NOT the media of the end-cap. Obviously the centre tube lacks filtering ability, so if this is the case, there will be unfiltered oil passing through the gap between the ADBV and the top of the filter, which it is supposed to be sealing against.
Now of course if the centre tube was not present and the media had enough rigidity to not require it, this would not be an issue, but as you already noted, this isn't the case.
I can see two sources of this "issue":
1. The media is short in the first place/centre tube too long
2. The media compresses/distorts/twists, making it shorter, exposing a bit of the centre tube
I've seen #2 in person with the TG that came off my sister's Explorer. End caps were severely deformed and the media was extremely twisted/wavy. There was no way the ADBV was sealing against the end cap on that filter.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
But as mentioned earlier, the only seal that matters is between the end cap material and the ADBV and bypass valve assy. The end caps don't even really have to cover the center tube to seal around the hole in the end caps. If media itself was strong enough to take all the flow force and the compression from the spring in the dome end of the filter, you wouldn't even need a center tube.
I will try to clarify what I believe is being said:
If the centre tube protrudes past the media end caps, which form the seal, the ADBV will be sealing against the metal of the tube, NOT the media of the end-cap. Obviously the centre tube lacks filtering ability, so if this is the case, there will be unfiltered oil passing through the gap between the ADBV and the top of the filter, which it is supposed to be sealing against.
Now of course if the centre tube was not present and the media had enough rigidity to not require it, this would not be an issue, but as you already noted, this isn't the case.
I can see two sources of this "issue":
1. The media is short in the first place/centre tube too long
2. The media compresses/distorts/twists, making it shorter, exposing a bit of the centre tube
I've seen #2 in person with the TG that came off my sister's Explorer. End caps were severely deformed and the media was extremely twisted/wavy. There was no way the ADBV was sealing against the end cap on that filter.
This may be a stupid thought but were you able to see the deformed end caps before cutting? Is it possible that once the pressure is relieved by cutting open the end caps deform? In other words they are not deformed inside the filter, only when allowed to expand.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
But as mentioned earlier, the only seal that matters is between the end cap material and the ADBV and bypass valve assy. The end caps don't even really have to cover the center tube to seal around the hole in the end caps. If media itself was strong enough to take all the flow force and the compression from the spring in the dome end of the filter, you wouldn't even need a center tube.
I will try to clarify what I believe is being said:
If the centre tube protrudes past the media end caps, which form the seal, the ADBV will be sealing against the metal of the tube, NOT the media of the end-cap. Obviously the centre tube lacks filtering ability, so if this is the case, there will be unfiltered oil passing through the gap between the ADBV and the top of the filter, which it is supposed to be sealing against.
Now of course if the centre tube was not present and the media had enough rigidity to not require it, this would not be an issue, but as you already noted, this isn't the case.
I can see two sources of this "issue":
1. The media is short in the first place/centre tube too long
2. The media compresses/distorts/twists, making it shorter, exposing a bit of the centre tube
I've seen #2 in person with the TG that came off my sister's Explorer. End caps were severely deformed and the media was extremely twisted/wavy. There was no way the ADBV was sealing against the end cap on that filter.
This may be a stupid thought but were you able to see the deformed end caps before cutting? Is it possible that once the pressure is relieved by cutting open the end caps deform? In other words they are not deformed inside the filter, only when allowed to expand.
I am actually a Romo fan cause he usually gets his team in position to win even after the defense gives up td after td.
He knows it is all on him to make plays and yesterday was just bad.
You have to be able to practice and play in some preseason games and he did not.
I dont think his back is 100 per cent after his two surgeries.
We will see though.
Oops I got off target
Sorry
He knows it is all on him to make plays and yesterday was just bad.
You have to be able to practice and play in some preseason games and he did not.
I dont think his back is 100 per cent after his two surgeries.
We will see though.
Oops I got off target
Sorry
- Status