In SA we mostly have the black Fram filter(no tough guard or ultra etc.) but the build quality is exceptional.They are manufactured at the same factory as our GUD filters.Inside they look exactly like a Baldwin.All metal parts.It is still manufactured under licence to Honeywell.
So, Fram filters...why the bad rap?
- Thread starter ForceFedMopar
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I cut open an orange can for my buddy at work. I think it had ~3500 miles on it. It looked good IMO. The end caps were nice and flat and the seal around the center tube on both ends looked good. The pleats were evenly spaced and straight, the ends of the pleats were glued very well to the end caps and the seam was glued together very solidly. I couldn't really find anything say it wasn't doing its job.
Fram only rates the orange can (EG) to 5,000 miles. For anyone who hasn't cut open a Fram EG or TG and are bashing the "paper end caps", then they have no first hand experience of actually seeing and touching them to see what they really are. If you use the filter as intended it does the job just as good (or better in terms of efficiency) as any other filter rated for 5K OCIs.
Fram only rates the orange can (EG) to 5,000 miles. For anyone who hasn't cut open a Fram EG or TG and are bashing the "paper end caps", then they have no first hand experience of actually seeing and touching them to see what they really are. If you use the filter as intended it does the job just as good (or better in terms of efficiency) as any other filter rated for 5K OCIs.
Quote:
There is no unfiltered oil coming through the gap between the end cap and the center tube, the gap between the center tube and end cap is harmless......
I don't see it that way.
The endcaps as designed must completely cover the ends (both) of the centertube the over complete circumference of the centertube for the entire fci or unfiltered oil can/will bypass at that point. Each picture shows the potential bypass area.
In the first pic the area is between 3 and 4 o'clock. In pics two and three the filter has been rotated and that area is at the 12 o'clock position, especially visible in pic 3. And it should be noted that the view is only from one end (adbv/base) and of an unused filter where the pleats have not had the opportunity to distort or pull on the fiber endcap.
If the gap between the centertube and endcap is "harmless", then imo the same could be made of some of the tears seen in some Puro's posted here. The result is the same, some bypass of unfiltered oil. The difference is the tears can generally be more easily seen, the centertube fiber endcap area may not be seen until the adbv and/or the leaf spring/bypass has been removed and requires careful observation of those areas and knowing what to look for.
So I'll agree to disagree with your conclusion. And completely agree with edhackett's points and conclusion he made while referencing a similar area on Brian Barnhart's earlier dissection pics. Again quoting Ed for clarity.
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Your second picture down shows why I will not use a fiber end cap Fram. At the 4:30 position you can see that the center tube is misaligned. This compromises the seal at that point. I've seen pictures and had one personally where the pleats had buckled and the end caps pulled down enough to show a definite leak at the bypass end. Some off center tubes don't seem to cause a problem and the marks from the ADBV or bypass piece show the seal may have been OK, some show the seal clearly compromised......
Ed
Thanks for the pics and re-illustrating Ed's points.
There is no unfiltered oil coming through the gap between the end cap and the center tube, the gap between the center tube and end cap is harmless......
I don't see it that way.
The endcaps as designed must completely cover the ends (both) of the centertube the over complete circumference of the centertube for the entire fci or unfiltered oil can/will bypass at that point. Each picture shows the potential bypass area.
In the first pic the area is between 3 and 4 o'clock. In pics two and three the filter has been rotated and that area is at the 12 o'clock position, especially visible in pic 3. And it should be noted that the view is only from one end (adbv/base) and of an unused filter where the pleats have not had the opportunity to distort or pull on the fiber endcap.
If the gap between the centertube and endcap is "harmless", then imo the same could be made of some of the tears seen in some Puro's posted here. The result is the same, some bypass of unfiltered oil. The difference is the tears can generally be more easily seen, the centertube fiber endcap area may not be seen until the adbv and/or the leaf spring/bypass has been removed and requires careful observation of those areas and knowing what to look for.
So I'll agree to disagree with your conclusion. And completely agree with edhackett's points and conclusion he made while referencing a similar area on Brian Barnhart's earlier dissection pics. Again quoting Ed for clarity.
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Your second picture down shows why I will not use a fiber end cap Fram. At the 4:30 position you can see that the center tube is misaligned. This compromises the seal at that point. I've seen pictures and had one personally where the pleats had buckled and the end caps pulled down enough to show a definite leak at the bypass end. Some off center tubes don't seem to cause a problem and the marks from the ADBV or bypass piece show the seal may have been OK, some show the seal clearly compromised......
Ed
Thanks for the pics and re-illustrating Ed's points.
I think I am going to have to agree to disagree, because I just don't understand where you guys think the unfiltered oil is coming from.
The oil enters the filter through the small holes on the oil filter baseplate, goes through the outside of the filter media, and the clean oil exits through the center tube. The adbv is completely sealed against the filter media as seen in the attached pictures, so there is no oil entering the center tube past the adbv. Any oil that passes through the gap between the center tube and end caps has already been filtered, just like the oil that passes through the pre-drilled holes in the center tube. Also I used a hacksaw/bench vise to cut this filter open, so the filter can may be a bit distorted and not round anymore.
The oil enters the filter through the small holes on the oil filter baseplate, goes through the outside of the filter media, and the clean oil exits through the center tube. The adbv is completely sealed against the filter media as seen in the attached pictures, so there is no oil entering the center tube past the adbv. Any oil that passes through the gap between the center tube and end caps has already been filtered, just like the oil that passes through the pre-drilled holes in the center tube. Also I used a hacksaw/bench vise to cut this filter open, so the filter can may be a bit distorted and not round anymore.
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Originally Posted By: telecat
Quote:
So, Fram filters...why the bad rap?
Paper end caps.
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
telecat TROLL!
If a troll is right...is he still a troll?
They don't like me because I don't join in the group quest for a million-mile oil and filter change interval.
Originally Posted By: telecat
Quote:
So, Fram filters...why the bad rap?
Paper end caps.
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
telecat TROLL!
If a troll is right...is he still a troll?
They don't like me because I don't join in the group quest for a million-mile oil and filter change interval.
Originally Posted By: telecat
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Originally Posted By: telecat
Quote:
So, Fram filters...why the bad rap?
Paper end caps.
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
telecat TROLL!
If a troll is right...is he still a troll?
They don't like me because I don't join in the group quest for a million-mile oil and filter change interval.
Nevermind, now I hate you to.
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Originally Posted By: telecat
Quote:
So, Fram filters...why the bad rap?
Paper end caps.
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
telecat TROLL!
If a troll is right...is he still a troll?
They don't like me because I don't join in the group quest for a million-mile oil and filter change interval.
Nevermind, now I hate you to.
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Nevermind, now I hate you to.
Oh, I'm so glad. Thanks.
Nevermind, now I hate you to.
Oh, I'm so glad. Thanks.
Quote:
Only picture that matters of most recent set is last one showing same issue in first set ie., an uncovered/unsealed centertube end shown in first set. Unfiltered oil from the inlet side is what the outer side of the endcap is exposed to. Any oil passing in gap shown at 12 o'clock is also unfiltered, ie., hasn't passed through the media but rather bypassed it going directly to the outlet or downstream side of filter.
Again, this is a new filter and hasn't been exposed to use which can tend to distort the pleating resulting in pulling on endcap.
Note Ed didn't say all fiber endcaps exhibit exposed/uncovered centertube ends, but those that do are susceptible to bypass.
Only picture that matters of most recent set is last one showing same issue in first set ie., an uncovered/unsealed centertube end shown in first set. Unfiltered oil from the inlet side is what the outer side of the endcap is exposed to. Any oil passing in gap shown at 12 o'clock is also unfiltered, ie., hasn't passed through the media but rather bypassed it going directly to the outlet or downstream side of filter.
Again, this is a new filter and hasn't been exposed to use which can tend to distort the pleating resulting in pulling on endcap.
Note Ed didn't say all fiber endcaps exhibit exposed/uncovered centertube ends, but those that do are susceptible to bypass.
MrQuackers
Site Donor 2025
With the ADBV inserted well within the center tube and the internals held firmly together under the leafspring's pressure, I don't think the issue of the endcaps is much of a worry. It would be nice if Jay would stop by for some enlightenment.
I think the ADBV is more forgiving of the issue. It's when it is at the bypass end that there is more chance of a leak. That is a rigid piece of steel requiring a gasket to seal against the metal end of the center tube. With the tube not centered, there is a gap in the gasket formed by the end cap. This results in a gap between the bypass/spring assembly the thickness of the end cap if he cap and media collapse downward as shown in the used TG photo.
The end caps need to properly centered over the center tube so that it provides structural support for the sealing surfaces on both ends. The spring is trying to compress the assembly and the fiber end caps and media alone have proven not to be rigid enough in all cases.
As I stated before, some filters with the off center issue appear to have remained sealed fine. Others are clearly compromised. Assembled as designed there is little to criticize in the design. The fact that manufacturing tolerances allow for a potential issue is the reason I won't buy a fiber end cap filter.
Ed
The end caps need to properly centered over the center tube so that it provides structural support for the sealing surfaces on both ends. The spring is trying to compress the assembly and the fiber end caps and media alone have proven not to be rigid enough in all cases.
As I stated before, some filters with the off center issue appear to have remained sealed fine. Others are clearly compromised. Assembled as designed there is little to criticize in the design. The fact that manufacturing tolerances allow for a potential issue is the reason I won't buy a fiber end cap filter.
Ed
MrQuackers
Site Donor 2025
Thank you for your detailed posts. Perhaps Fram should design a rubber gasket for the bypass side to eliminate the possibility of leaks.
Fwiw, I agree that the adbv/base end is more forgiving because the nitrile or silicone adbv material may put some pressure on the top of endcap on the base end. Still though, completely covering the centertube at both ends should be the standard. Also agree that the tight tolerance covering the ends leaves little room for error.
Just as the Puro seam pleat area has become, the fiber endcap views should be an area of prime interest on post use dissections imo.
Just as the Puro seam pleat area has become, the fiber endcap views should be an area of prime interest on post use dissections imo.
Originally Posted By: MrQuackers
Thank you for your detailed posts. Perhaps Fram should design a rubber gasket for the bypass side to eliminate the possibility of leaks.
I posted in this thread a few posts back that I had cut open a Fram EG (orange can) for my buddy at work since he has no filter cutter. I looked at both ends of the center tube and I could clearly see an impression in the fiber end caps where there was a good seal. At least on this particular filter, it was definitely sealing at both end caps around the center tube.
Thank you for your detailed posts. Perhaps Fram should design a rubber gasket for the bypass side to eliminate the possibility of leaks.
I posted in this thread a few posts back that I had cut open a Fram EG (orange can) for my buddy at work since he has no filter cutter. I looked at both ends of the center tube and I could clearly see an impression in the fiber end caps where there was a good seal. At least on this particular filter, it was definitely sealing at both end caps around the center tube.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
The endcaps as designed must completely cover the ends (both) of the centertube the over complete circumference of the centertube for the entire fci or unfiltered oil can/will bypass at that point.
I disagree ... you could take the center tube completely out of the filter element, and as long as there was a seal around the hole on the end caps by the ADBV and bypass valve assy where the center tube resides, then no dirty oil would leak past the center tube. All of the media pleats are glued to each end cap, so as long as the seal on the fiber end cap is good, there is no leakage.
The metal center tube has nothing to do with the sealing at the end caps. The center tube is only there to give the media support when oil flow is trying to push the pleats towards the center of the filter due to delat-p.
The endcaps as designed must completely cover the ends (both) of the centertube the over complete circumference of the centertube for the entire fci or unfiltered oil can/will bypass at that point.
I disagree ... you could take the center tube completely out of the filter element, and as long as there was a seal around the hole on the end caps by the ADBV and bypass valve assy where the center tube resides, then no dirty oil would leak past the center tube. All of the media pleats are glued to each end cap, so as long as the seal on the fiber end cap is good, there is no leakage.
The metal center tube has nothing to do with the sealing at the end caps. The center tube is only there to give the media support when oil flow is trying to push the pleats towards the center of the filter due to delat-p.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: sayjac
The endcaps as designed must completely cover the ends (both) of the centertube the over complete circumference of the centertube for the entire fci or unfiltered oil can/will bypass at that point.
I disagree ... you could take the center tube completely out of the filter element, and as long as there was a seal around the hole where the center tube resides, there would be no dirty out leaking past the center tube. All of the media pleats are glued to each end cap, so as long as the seal on the fiber end cap is good, there is no leakage.
I disagree with you and agree with the points Ed made. If the fiber endcap doesn't cover the centertube of EG or TG as it's specifically designed especially but not limited to the dome end, then unfiltered oil can and will bypass at the gaps where the endcaps collapse at the center and/or a gap or gaps occur.
Further, to quote you from the linked thread.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...%5D#Post2936346
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
...The problem I have with "fiber end caps" is that they can warp and cause a leak where the center tube ends are on the end caps. FRAM seems to have a great seal between the ends of the media pleats and the fiber end caps ... but I think their end caps are a bit too thin and can warp. I've seen photos posted in this forum of filters with much thicker fiber end caps (Honda OEM for instance) that look like they stay nice and flat. I don't see a problem with whatever the material is, as long as the end caps stay nice and flat over the OCI.......
Originally Posted By: sayjac
The endcaps as designed must completely cover the ends (both) of the centertube the over complete circumference of the centertube for the entire fci or unfiltered oil can/will bypass at that point.
I disagree ... you could take the center tube completely out of the filter element, and as long as there was a seal around the hole where the center tube resides, there would be no dirty out leaking past the center tube. All of the media pleats are glued to each end cap, so as long as the seal on the fiber end cap is good, there is no leakage.
I disagree with you and agree with the points Ed made. If the fiber endcap doesn't cover the centertube of EG or TG as it's specifically designed especially but not limited to the dome end, then unfiltered oil can and will bypass at the gaps where the endcaps collapse at the center and/or a gap or gaps occur.
Further, to quote you from the linked thread.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...%5D#Post2936346
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
...The problem I have with "fiber end caps" is that they can warp and cause a leak where the center tube ends are on the end caps. FRAM seems to have a great seal between the ends of the media pleats and the fiber end caps ... but I think their end caps are a bit too thin and can warp. I've seen photos posted in this forum of filters with much thicker fiber end caps (Honda OEM for instance) that look like they stay nice and flat. I don't see a problem with whatever the material is, as long as the end caps stay nice and flat over the OCI.......
^^^ The EG (orange can) I just cut open had nice firm and flat end caps. The end caps didn't cover the metal center core. I saw no signs of any bad sealing around the circumference of the center hole in each end cap. Perhaps Fram has changed something, but like I said above, if the metal center tube was removed this particular filter would have still sealed 100% at each end cap.
^^^ So you've mentioned several times. And there have been Purolator anecdotes here even recently showing no tears too. Just as there are EG and TG anecdotes showing uncovered endcaps with open gaps. But the endcaps are designed to cover the centertube.
Note neither Ed or I said all fiber endcaps exhibit the gap phenomena. However is does exist as has been posted and your words state end caps and bypass to be an area of concern.
Note neither Ed or I said all fiber endcaps exhibit the gap phenomena. However is does exist as has been posted and your words state end caps and bypass to be an area of concern.
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Why doesn't fram just stop being so darn cheap and add metal end caps to the OCOD and end this discussion forever??
Because they're cheap and have good marketing. People will believe ANYTHING. BITOG is one of the repositories of the gullible.
"I got 75,000 miles on my last oil filter. Ain't I cool?"
Why doesn't fram just stop being so darn cheap and add metal end caps to the OCOD and end this discussion forever??
Because they're cheap and have good marketing. People will believe ANYTHING. BITOG is one of the repositories of the gullible.
"I got 75,000 miles on my last oil filter. Ain't I cool?"
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