Try pouring some MMO or GM top engine cleaner slowly down the intake or through a vacuum line.It could be a sticking valve.
Sludge is bad, but is varnish good?
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Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: jsap
Fyi, I replaced my lifters, and it's still ticking after more than a week, so maybe MMO didn't cause anything worse.
However, what seems to have made the ticking louder might be because the viscosity of the oil changed, so the sound travelled through the engine differently....
No conclusions drawn from this experience regarding MMO. However, I'll stick to my belief that a certain amount of varnish is acceptable. As to whether a certain amount is beneficial, I'll hold off. I sure wish an engineer from a manufacturer would come on and say something.
I was taught back in the 70's that if you are going to replace lifters you should also replace the cam. I learned that the hard way, trying to resolve a lifter problem in a 302 Mustang I bought as a kid. A friend and I changed out 16 lifters, only to have the annoying tick. When I told my shop teacher, he explained to me that the lifters and cam wear together, now when you mate a new lifter to an old worn cam the lifter will take on the wear pattern the old lifter had, and change the wear surface of the old cam as well. In many cases the noise will not go away.
It has nothing to do with adding A-Rx or MMO to an engine. If the lifter was making noise because of dirt that is another story. This can also apply to certain newer engines as well.
That only applies to flat-tappet however. Not to more modern rollerized valvetrains.
Originally Posted By: jsap
Fyi, I replaced my lifters, and it's still ticking after more than a week, so maybe MMO didn't cause anything worse.
However, what seems to have made the ticking louder might be because the viscosity of the oil changed, so the sound travelled through the engine differently....
No conclusions drawn from this experience regarding MMO. However, I'll stick to my belief that a certain amount of varnish is acceptable. As to whether a certain amount is beneficial, I'll hold off. I sure wish an engineer from a manufacturer would come on and say something.
I was taught back in the 70's that if you are going to replace lifters you should also replace the cam. I learned that the hard way, trying to resolve a lifter problem in a 302 Mustang I bought as a kid. A friend and I changed out 16 lifters, only to have the annoying tick. When I told my shop teacher, he explained to me that the lifters and cam wear together, now when you mate a new lifter to an old worn cam the lifter will take on the wear pattern the old lifter had, and change the wear surface of the old cam as well. In many cases the noise will not go away.
It has nothing to do with adding A-Rx or MMO to an engine. If the lifter was making noise because of dirt that is another story. This can also apply to certain newer engines as well.
That only applies to flat-tappet however. Not to more modern rollerized valvetrains.
I have flat tappets, but the pressures on it on the M119 engine are very low, so all the lobes are still flat. For older engines with high-pressures, I agree with dermapaint.
So far, I've been running Regane in the tank, so I'll report when I get more progress.
As for varnish, look at this:
http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/
"Engine oils are subjected to a series of industry standard engine dynamometer tests to measure their wear protection capability, sludge and varnish formation tendencies"
"...it was observed that engine oil samples collected from fleet vehicles after 12,000 mile drain interval showed 10-15 % lower friction and more importantly, an order of magnitude lower wear rate than those of fresh oils."
"It was also observed that the composition of the tribochemical films formed was quite different on the surface tested with the drain oils from those formed with fresh oils. The objective of this investigation is to demonstrate how the friction and wear performance changed with oil drain intervals."
Does anyone have this article?
It seems that tribochemical films (which I'm assuming possibly includes varnish films on surfaces) help protect against wear.
And, there's also these articles:
https://springerlink3.metapress.com/cont...pringerlink.com
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ls.3010090402/abstract
Does anyone have copies of these articles? It seems MMO and other additives might remove antiwear films, but I'd like to read the articles for their conclusions....
So far, I've been running Regane in the tank, so I'll report when I get more progress.
As for varnish, look at this:
http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/
"Engine oils are subjected to a series of industry standard engine dynamometer tests to measure their wear protection capability, sludge and varnish formation tendencies"
"...it was observed that engine oil samples collected from fleet vehicles after 12,000 mile drain interval showed 10-15 % lower friction and more importantly, an order of magnitude lower wear rate than those of fresh oils."
"It was also observed that the composition of the tribochemical films formed was quite different on the surface tested with the drain oils from those formed with fresh oils. The objective of this investigation is to demonstrate how the friction and wear performance changed with oil drain intervals."
Does anyone have this article?
It seems that tribochemical films (which I'm assuming possibly includes varnish films on surfaces) help protect against wear.
And, there's also these articles:
https://springerlink3.metapress.com/cont...pringerlink.com
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ls.3010090402/abstract
Does anyone have copies of these articles? It seems MMO and other additives might remove antiwear films, but I'd like to read the articles for their conclusions....
Originally Posted By: DEMARPAINT
It has nothing to do with adding A-Rx or MMO to an engine. If the lifter was making noise because of dirt that is another story. This can also apply to certain newer engines as well.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
That only applies to flat-tappet however. Not to more modern rollerized valvetrains.
Notice my careful choice of words? "This can also apply to "certain" newer engines as well."
At least that is what a mechanic friend told me recently, pertaining to high mile newer rigs. I haven't researched it nor changed a cam in anything new.
It has nothing to do with adding A-Rx or MMO to an engine. If the lifter was making noise because of dirt that is another story. This can also apply to certain newer engines as well.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
That only applies to flat-tappet however. Not to more modern rollerized valvetrains.
Notice my careful choice of words? "This can also apply to "certain" newer engines as well."
At least that is what a mechanic friend told me recently, pertaining to high mile newer rigs. I haven't researched it nor changed a cam in anything new.
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Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: DEMARPAINT
It has nothing to do with adding A-Rx or MMO to an engine. If the lifter was making noise because of dirt that is another story. This can also apply to certain newer engines as well.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
That only applies to flat-tappet however. Not to more modern rollerized valvetrains.
Notice my careful choice of words? "This can also apply to "certain" newer engines as well." At least that is what a mechanic friend told me recently, pertaining to high mile newer rigs. I haven't researched it nor changed a cam in anything new.
Yes, as there appear to some manufacturers who continue to use non-rollerized valvetrains, and that would (IMHO) apply to them as well I suppose.
Originally Posted By: DEMARPAINT
It has nothing to do with adding A-Rx or MMO to an engine. If the lifter was making noise because of dirt that is another story. This can also apply to certain newer engines as well.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
That only applies to flat-tappet however. Not to more modern rollerized valvetrains.
Notice my careful choice of words? "This can also apply to "certain" newer engines as well."
At least that is what a mechanic friend told me recently, pertaining to high mile newer rigs. I haven't researched it nor changed a cam in anything new.Yes, as there appear to some manufacturers who continue to use non-rollerized valvetrains, and that would (IMHO) apply to them as well I suppose.
Those pictures showing varnish on wear surfaces actually show build up on areas of the cam that are NOT touching the lifter. At that point on the ramp, the cam is kinda flat on the lifter bucket , and is not riding on that surface.
Otherwise, they would be wiped off almost immediately.
Yes, we would think the cam is perfect and the ramps would show a wear pattern, but this is not always the case.
Cam lobe bases have no pressure, and they can get varnished, as well.
Otherwise, they would be wiped off almost immediately.
Yes, we would think the cam is perfect and the ramps would show a wear pattern, but this is not always the case.
Cam lobe bases have no pressure, and they can get varnished, as well.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Those pictures showing varnish on wear surfaces actually show build up on areas of the cam that are NOT touching the lifter. At that point on the ramp, the cam is kinda flat on the lifter bucket , and is not riding on that surface.
Otherwise, they would be wiped off almost immediately.
Yes, we would think the cam is perfect and the ramps would show a wear pattern, but this is not always the case.
Cam lobe bases have no pressure, and they can get varnished, as well.
Well, these pictures are after MMO, and what they show is the remaining varnish. That varnish on the flats of the cam lobes are still touching the tappets, but the pressure is distributed enough to keep more of the varnish on.
Before MMO, the entire lobe was varnished, except at the very tops. And, all of the tappets had a darker brown tint of varnish on them. Now, it's much cleaner.
I wish I had those articles to read. My suspicion is that what the authors refers to as tribochemical films is varnish, at least a very very thin layer on friction surfaces.
Those pictures showing varnish on wear surfaces actually show build up on areas of the cam that are NOT touching the lifter. At that point on the ramp, the cam is kinda flat on the lifter bucket , and is not riding on that surface.
Otherwise, they would be wiped off almost immediately.
Yes, we would think the cam is perfect and the ramps would show a wear pattern, but this is not always the case.
Cam lobe bases have no pressure, and they can get varnished, as well.
Well, these pictures are after MMO, and what they show is the remaining varnish. That varnish on the flats of the cam lobes are still touching the tappets, but the pressure is distributed enough to keep more of the varnish on.
Before MMO, the entire lobe was varnished, except at the very tops. And, all of the tappets had a darker brown tint of varnish on them. Now, it's much cleaner.
I wish I had those articles to read. My suspicion is that what the authors refers to as tribochemical films is varnish, at least a very very thin layer on friction surfaces.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Try pouring some MMO or GM top engine cleaner slowly down the intake or through a vacuum line.It could be a sticking valve.
Yea, given that changing the lifters did nothing, I'm getting the feeling that it is valve carbon.
So far, I've tried
- water injection thru brake booster line (which goes into the intake manifold)
- water injection thru pcv line (which routs directly above the intake valves)
- MMO thru brake booster
- MMO thru pcv
- piston soak with MMO
- carb cleaner spray into spark plug well
- water induction system into pcv
- Regane (two bottles) in 21 gallon tank
And the ticking continues. But, since the regane and the water induction, the ticking has at times abated at times for several seconds to several minutes. But it always comes back after the car gets cold.
I'll report as I progress....
Try pouring some MMO or GM top engine cleaner slowly down the intake or through a vacuum line.It could be a sticking valve.
Yea, given that changing the lifters did nothing, I'm getting the feeling that it is valve carbon.
So far, I've tried
- water injection thru brake booster line (which goes into the intake manifold)
- water injection thru pcv line (which routs directly above the intake valves)
- MMO thru brake booster
- MMO thru pcv
- piston soak with MMO
- carb cleaner spray into spark plug well
- water induction system into pcv
- Regane (two bottles) in 21 gallon tank
And the ticking continues. But, since the regane and the water induction, the ticking has at times abated at times for several seconds to several minutes. But it always comes back after the car gets cold.
I'll report as I progress....
One thing you can try is pull the injectors and spray some amsoil power foam down there,of course this will only work on the intake valve but chances are that's where most of the deposits are.
Make sure and pull the plugs and crank the engine after doing this.Let soak over the weekend if possible.
Make sure and pull the plugs and crank the engine after doing this.Let soak over the weekend if possible.
Thanks for the tip. I haven't given up the valve carbon theory, and I do think MMO is not a strong enough solvent. I was thinking that rather than Seafoam or GM TEC, I'd try just more carb cleaner, and lots of it.
There is one difficult possibility, which is that the carbon is on the exhaust valves. I had a plugged cat (bottomed out accelerating on a poorly maintained freeway on-ramp), and I had to drive with that for a couple of hundred miles. Car drove poorly, bad mileage and power, and sounded stuffed up.
This happened a year ago, and I replaced the cat then. But I the current engine ticking is from that event.
Short of removing the exhaust manifold, what's the best way to attack exhaust carbon? If the exhaust valve is not closing all the way due to carbon, then a strong solvent ought to seep through the valve and dissolve the carbon. I'm just concerned about the O2 sensors and the cats.
Btw, you're a million times more qualified than I am. Do tribochemical films contain what we describe as "varnish?"
There is one difficult possibility, which is that the carbon is on the exhaust valves. I had a plugged cat (bottomed out accelerating on a poorly maintained freeway on-ramp), and I had to drive with that for a couple of hundred miles. Car drove poorly, bad mileage and power, and sounded stuffed up.
This happened a year ago, and I replaced the cat then. But I the current engine ticking is from that event.
Short of removing the exhaust manifold, what's the best way to attack exhaust carbon? If the exhaust valve is not closing all the way due to carbon, then a strong solvent ought to seep through the valve and dissolve the carbon. I'm just concerned about the O2 sensors and the cats.
Btw, you're a million times more qualified than I am. Do tribochemical films contain what we describe as "varnish?"
Removing the exhaust manifolds would be the only way i know of to get anything in the exhaust valve stem and rear face area unless the engine is equipped with an air pump with tubes going into the exhaust manifolds near the exhaust ports.
This is probably your best bet. Use GM cleaner its good stuff, the top engine cleaner from Chrysler also.
You could try putting GM cleaner down each plug hole (leave the plugs out), use a good amount like 4 oz in each cyl then crank it over slowly (you don’t want to pump too much of the product into the exhaust system) by hand one complete revolution.
Let it sit a few days, over the weekend would be ideal, the longer the better.
Use a Mity Vac to suck the excess out if any before cranking the engine after it sits.
Remove the O2 sensors, reconnect them and hang them away from the hot pipe; you can replace them with a plug if you like to keep the noise down, an old 18mm thread Ford spark plug in the bung works perfectly just to start the engine.
Crank the engine with the starter with the spark plugs, ecm and fuel pump fuse removed.
Reinstall the fuses and plugs and start the engine, let it run 5-10 @2k RPM.
Reinstall the O2 sensors and change the oil.
You will get a CEL running it with the O2 sensors removed; you can reset the CEL if it does not go out on its own later.
Removing excess product before starting the engine and removing the O2 will keep the cat and O2 safe.
Fuel treatments may not work well in your case as the product is basically exhausted during combustion.
“Do tribochemical films contain what we describe as "varnish?"”
I really have no idea. Someone like Bruce would be better qualified to answer that, I am
This is probably your best bet. Use GM cleaner its good stuff, the top engine cleaner from Chrysler also.
You could try putting GM cleaner down each plug hole (leave the plugs out), use a good amount like 4 oz in each cyl then crank it over slowly (you don’t want to pump too much of the product into the exhaust system) by hand one complete revolution.
Let it sit a few days, over the weekend would be ideal, the longer the better.
Use a Mity Vac to suck the excess out if any before cranking the engine after it sits.
Remove the O2 sensors, reconnect them and hang them away from the hot pipe; you can replace them with a plug if you like to keep the noise down, an old 18mm thread Ford spark plug in the bung works perfectly just to start the engine.
Crank the engine with the starter with the spark plugs, ecm and fuel pump fuse removed.
Reinstall the fuses and plugs and start the engine, let it run 5-10 @2k RPM.
Reinstall the O2 sensors and change the oil.
You will get a CEL running it with the O2 sensors removed; you can reset the CEL if it does not go out on its own later.
Removing excess product before starting the engine and removing the O2 will keep the cat and O2 safe.
Fuel treatments may not work well in your case as the product is basically exhausted during combustion.
“Do tribochemical films contain what we describe as "varnish?"”
I really have no idea. Someone like Bruce would be better qualified to answer that, I am
The air pump duct is in a severe inclination at the exhaust port, so any solvent will mostly flow down the manifold.
I'll try your suggestion, but if the Amsoil power foam is really a foam, then maybe I could inject that into the spark plug well with the exhaust valve in the open position.
After that, I think I'll look into removing the head. If you look at the spark plug picture, the #2 plug is discolored:
The insulator below the ring is white, so I think the adjacent cylinder is actually blowing combustion into #2.
Either that, or I've got a burnt valve.
I'll try your suggestion, but if the Amsoil power foam is really a foam, then maybe I could inject that into the spark plug well with the exhaust valve in the open position.
After that, I think I'll look into removing the head. If you look at the spark plug picture, the #2 plug is discolored:
The insulator below the ring is white, so I think the adjacent cylinder is actually blowing combustion into #2.
Either that, or I've got a burnt valve.
Have you connected a vacuum gauge up to this engine?
This could provide a lot of info about what's going on.
Did you do a cylinder leak down test or compression test?
This could provide a lot of info about what's going on.
Did you do a cylinder leak down test or compression test?
Thank you, the vacuum gauge is really good advice. I've never heard of one. The closest I've gotten to that is balancing a carburetor with tubes in a bucket of water. Anyway, I looked into what that is, and it seems I don't have a place on my intake manifold to connect to. The only non-ported location is the brake booster line, so I'll try that, though the article I read recommends that all lines be connected.
Also, I did do a compression check through a mechanic, and he noted that my #2 is running 10 psi less. The others are at 155 psi.
The problem with that was, so many.... He did this with the engine cold. On a hot engine, the psi should reach 185 or more. The other problem was that he only did the dry test, and refused the idea that a wet test would yield any useful info....
As for leak down, I recently lost my compressor. And I hate owning them, because they need to be drained, oil and filter changed, etc.
But, I do need to do some diagnostics. Otherwise, I'm running blind. I'll get a few things done in the next week or so, and report back my findings.
Btw, the reason why I suspect a head gasket leak is because of the spark plug appearance, rough running, thuft thuft thuft sound when the engine is under load, and oil on several spark plug threads.
In fact, the biggest surprise was that when I poured MMO into #2 up to the top of the spark plug well, I found MMO on the spark plug thread on #1! At the time, I thought the MMO went through the PCV orifice. I'll have to confirm this with a leak down test, so I might get a new compressor, or at least an air tank.
Also, I did do a compression check through a mechanic, and he noted that my #2 is running 10 psi less. The others are at 155 psi.
The problem with that was, so many.... He did this with the engine cold. On a hot engine, the psi should reach 185 or more. The other problem was that he only did the dry test, and refused the idea that a wet test would yield any useful info....
As for leak down, I recently lost my compressor. And I hate owning them, because they need to be drained, oil and filter changed, etc.
But, I do need to do some diagnostics. Otherwise, I'm running blind. I'll get a few things done in the next week or so, and report back my findings.
Btw, the reason why I suspect a head gasket leak is because of the spark plug appearance, rough running, thuft thuft thuft sound when the engine is under load, and oil on several spark plug threads.
In fact, the biggest surprise was that when I poured MMO into #2 up to the top of the spark plug well, I found MMO on the spark plug thread on #1! At the time, I thought the MMO went through the PCV orifice. I'll have to confirm this with a leak down test, so I might get a new compressor, or at least an air tank.
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