Just joined, but I feel obliged to comment on the so called evidence of cleaning after the use of MMO, Kreen, Auto RX and idle flushes quoted by various members who I presume are trying to sell these oil additives somewhere, or who simply don't like one of the non OEM oil additive fans.
Firstly I have not seen any pictures in the recent threads that show any significant sludge, normal high miles light varnish or more significant baked on varnish that is worth cleaning. There are much better examples on You tube of very serious sludge in particular.
Secondly, in statistical terms all of the before and after pictures mean nothing without a control or base line comparison. You can not test any oil additive correctly on only one engine, because just using a shorter OCI or changing to a higher detergent content oil can clean an engine very quickly sometimes. The only way to test an additive is by using 2 engines in the same condition, use them in exactly the same manner in terms of both use, oil type and filtration, BUT use an additive in one and not in the other without informing the drivers, just in case they change their style as regards cold starts and idle time in particular.
UOA results can be more interesting, but only for anti wear additives and not flushes, apart from some side effects that have many other possible causes, like Fe / Al shed rate reductions from better oil flow or sump debris induced particle streak reductions.
Compression checks are slightly more interesting, but again without a control or other cross check it's easy to get a wrong answer. For example if you have a slightly poor set of rings subject to the big C due to too much time at idle or cool running that gave a low reading, then simply spraying a fine water mist into the intake or doing an Italian or autobahn clean out could clean out a bunch of C and even re seat exhaust valves or unstick an oil control ring etc.
Without some kind of control, cross check or computer simulation, the pictures or compression check results have no significance in terms of proving which flush worked or did not work. I do use my own idle flush mix once a year in my old diesel BMW, although oddly enough I don't use it to clean the engine as I am currently using a high miles oil and the sump is real shiny, I just use it for a minor side effect in assisting corrosion reduction, as my block is shedding rust particles and Fe is creeping upwards slightly.
I have no real intention to comment further, as I am here to look at BMW UOA results and any hydraulic fluid or transmission failure reports, but suffice to say, many of you should read more about statistics and control methods and not pay any attention to web site advertising pictures, any before or after pictures, non series UOA results or even comp check figures in terms of trying to figure out if an additive and a flusher in particular works safely or not.
PS. Can some member explain why additive fans here keep taking pictures of the top end of an engine, when the real interest is the sump and oil intake screen filter. It's almost like a comedy section here, as the BMW forum et al just post pictures of the sump looking up, or at least the engineers do!!
PPS. Still April fools day!!! (A salesman always replies first?)
Firstly I have not seen any pictures in the recent threads that show any significant sludge, normal high miles light varnish or more significant baked on varnish that is worth cleaning. There are much better examples on You tube of very serious sludge in particular.
Secondly, in statistical terms all of the before and after pictures mean nothing without a control or base line comparison. You can not test any oil additive correctly on only one engine, because just using a shorter OCI or changing to a higher detergent content oil can clean an engine very quickly sometimes. The only way to test an additive is by using 2 engines in the same condition, use them in exactly the same manner in terms of both use, oil type and filtration, BUT use an additive in one and not in the other without informing the drivers, just in case they change their style as regards cold starts and idle time in particular.
UOA results can be more interesting, but only for anti wear additives and not flushes, apart from some side effects that have many other possible causes, like Fe / Al shed rate reductions from better oil flow or sump debris induced particle streak reductions.
Compression checks are slightly more interesting, but again without a control or other cross check it's easy to get a wrong answer. For example if you have a slightly poor set of rings subject to the big C due to too much time at idle or cool running that gave a low reading, then simply spraying a fine water mist into the intake or doing an Italian or autobahn clean out could clean out a bunch of C and even re seat exhaust valves or unstick an oil control ring etc.
Without some kind of control, cross check or computer simulation, the pictures or compression check results have no significance in terms of proving which flush worked or did not work. I do use my own idle flush mix once a year in my old diesel BMW, although oddly enough I don't use it to clean the engine as I am currently using a high miles oil and the sump is real shiny, I just use it for a minor side effect in assisting corrosion reduction, as my block is shedding rust particles and Fe is creeping upwards slightly.
I have no real intention to comment further, as I am here to look at BMW UOA results and any hydraulic fluid or transmission failure reports, but suffice to say, many of you should read more about statistics and control methods and not pay any attention to web site advertising pictures, any before or after pictures, non series UOA results or even comp check figures in terms of trying to figure out if an additive and a flusher in particular works safely or not.
PS. Can some member explain why additive fans here keep taking pictures of the top end of an engine, when the real interest is the sump and oil intake screen filter. It's almost like a comedy section here, as the BMW forum et al just post pictures of the sump looking up, or at least the engineers do!!
PPS. Still April fools day!!! (A salesman always replies first?)
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