Most Americans are not. They're sick and tired of watching the government flush their hard earned money down the toilet. The government does 2 things very well. Print money, then waste it when they get it back in April.
Should gas stations be mandated to have chargers as well?
- Thread starter ZZman
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My bet is in a cold snap you'd have a repeat of the nightmare for many EV owners in Chicago, or worse.
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I have to couch my words so as not to raise the ire of mods. I'm not as rigid as you've determined and painted me as such. In the beginning, I was skeptical but malleable. As I learned more and more it was clear something was a foul. Walk this back to the days Clinton was Sec of State. Look at the relationship with a certain Canadian billionaire who is extensively involved in mining throughout the world. Again, much more to state but it will go south.
To portray those specific elements as you have is counterintuitive to the logic you espouse. Geopolitically speaking, many countries are fiercely protecting and mining these very same elements with no indication of slowed production. To me, if this were an accurate statement from your post then wouldn't that counter your negative commentary on capitolism? If there were a decreased need, the market would contract, no? Isn't that capitalism at work?
"My states issues are due to capitalism run amok, many monopolies like power have to be regulated with a heavy hand or they will game the system to extract an increasing amount of profit even in a shrinking market."
Rather idealistic view of how your govt operates in the world of electric generation. I have to admit I am not up to speed on Wisc and how your power operates but I certainly have knowledge of how it works in NY. The govt sure does NOT regulate ConEd, NYSEG, etc. with a heavy hand. These companies operate as quasi-government agencies. They never get turned down for a rate hike, they lobby and pad the politicians PAC's....on and on. Higlyt unlikely the Wis politicians are much better than the ones here in NY.
Our electrical infrastructure is woefully inadequate and slowly improving. If it weren't for govt protection and zero ability for a competitor to enter the market there would be increased investment in infrastructure improvements. Again, counter to your statements.
I believe that less govt is better and you, not so much. Nice way to say it. I'm in a populated area an hour north of NYC. If there is money to be made, businesses respond. A good number of EV's & PHEV's in my area. The charging infrastructure is horrendous! This is an area where govt could incentivize and help with infrastructure. I would think we could agree this is an area where govt could be beneficial to boost the market. Yet it's not happening. Furthermore, businesses aren't jumping in to gain a market share of charging. Why? I can only assume barriers to entry or ROI $$ aren't there.
All this and one of the vehicles high on my list is 2025 Highlander .... drumroll .... hybrid! I'm not anti-EV/PHEV but skeptical of a lot as we have been sold a bill of goods from largely govt. Look at the websites that show congress/senate membership stock investments. Paints a picture that has to make anyone of sound mind question a lot! Or, maybe that last speaker was a true stockpicking genius! She sure did trounce a lot of professionals in the S&P 500.
No one is asking anyone to spend every last dime. You cite the extreme. There is a happy medium between doing nothing and doing everything.
No problem with that. It also needs storage.
Hopefully in the future we will learn how to recycle the batteries and their raw materials.
dnewton3
Staff member
I do not support mandates such as the OPs premise here.
The free and open market should determine cost and availability. Period.
But if for some inane reason charging station posts are required at gas stations, then I also think gas pumps should be mandated at electric charging areas as well. And diesel fuel should be mandated to be present as well; even some gas stations don't carry diesel fuel, and that's "unfair". And ethanol-free gas should be forced into every pump location while we're at it, because I want to be able to fill up my boat anywhere I chose and not just at the marina. And while we're at it, every fuel station should also have hydrogen also; my fuel-cell car should be able to be filled in Nowhere USA.
I mean, if it's all about fairness and accessibility ... Goose, meet gander.
The free and open market should determine cost and availability. Period.
But if for some inane reason charging station posts are required at gas stations, then I also think gas pumps should be mandated at electric charging areas as well. And diesel fuel should be mandated to be present as well; even some gas stations don't carry diesel fuel, and that's "unfair". And ethanol-free gas should be forced into every pump location while we're at it, because I want to be able to fill up my boat anywhere I chose and not just at the marina. And while we're at it, every fuel station should also have hydrogen also; my fuel-cell car should be able to be filled in Nowhere USA.
I mean, if it's all about fairness and accessibility ... Goose, meet gander.
dnewton3
Staff member
Typical ...
Let's put the cart in front of the horse.
Rather, how about we fully plan a holistic program with ALL concerns and challenges taken into account, assuring that not only are initial resources in place, but end-of-life planning is also accounted for BEFORE we leap into short-term solutions?
I have a recommendation for you ...
There's a YT channel hosted by Reason magazine that has a series of videos called "unintended consequences".
I suggest you watch several of them and then maybe you'll understand the folly of your statement above.
First off there are mandates on where you cannot build gas stations (zoning? environmental hearing?). It is much easier to build chargers in general parking lots than gas stations. Second people charge when they are somewhere and go to gas station because they need gas. If you can charge where ever you stop you don't need a dedicated charging "station".
So, no. I think eventually most businesses would have some sort of charging facility and if you have to mandate you will mandate something like a certain percent of new parking lot being charging capable or leave the infrastructure for charging (i.e. certain amperage of current / voltage so you can add charging later) in the building code.
So, no. I think eventually most businesses would have some sort of charging facility and if you have to mandate you will mandate something like a certain percent of new parking lot being charging capable or leave the infrastructure for charging (i.e. certain amperage of current / voltage so you can add charging later) in the building code.
Where's that at?
Kind of sparse, but it looks doable, even in winter. There is one Destination Charging setup at a tribal casino that's made them available to the public, but if you're stuck there for a few hours, what else are you going to do? Superchargers are spaced less than 100 miles apart on I-94. Three to the west are at malls, but in Fargo it's at a Casey's General Store. Yea - a Supercharger at a gas station.
Google Maps
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
www.google.com
However, my post was about the lack of Tesla Supercharging in an area where a lot of people living in the area and visiting wine country drive Teslas. It probably wouldn't be that big a deal with people who live there and charge at home, but that place has an extremely heavy tourism economy, and lots of day trips from other parts of the San Francisco Bay Area. I would hope Tesla would be working on adding more. We had plenty of range on Model 3 RWD, but perhaps someone coming in from Silicon Valley might want to charge.
Mandate!? Everything government mandates is accomplished at gunpoint.
Government passes mandate.
Mom and pop gas station owner says "No".
Government sends threatening letters. Government assesses fines.
Mom and pop still says "No".
Government sends agents armed with guns to shut down mom and pop gas station. If mom and pop gas station owner mildly resists, government agents beat him up, shackle him, and cage him.
If he resists with equal force, government agents literally shoot him.
Keep in mind; mom and pop gas station owner harmed nobody.
Government passes mandate.
Mom and pop gas station owner says "No".
Government sends threatening letters. Government assesses fines.
Mom and pop still says "No".
Government sends agents armed with guns to shut down mom and pop gas station. If mom and pop gas station owner mildly resists, government agents beat him up, shackle him, and cage him.
If he resists with equal force, government agents literally shoot him.
Keep in mind; mom and pop gas station owner harmed nobody.
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But there have been gas stations that have chosen to add charging. Part of it would be that it gets them some additional revenue and might also be a way to bring in convenience store sales. But it's a matter of "just right". If you're waiting 20 minutes to charge a Tesla from 30-80%, that might be ideal. But if there's a Level 2 ChargePoint setup that might take 5 hours for the same thing, what are they going to do for that time?
I personally think that kind of Level 2 setup is better for the kind of parking stop that you mention. Shopping malls. Workplaces. Amusement parks, zoos, etc.
Nothing is preventing you from sending more to Uncle Sam:
Bureau of the Fiscal Service - Public
fiscal.treasury.gov
Why would I send more then required? If they raise it I will gladly pay it without whining and trying to wiggle out of it.Nothing is preventing you from sending more to Uncle Sam:
Bureau of the Fiscal Service - Public
List of energy storage power plants - Wikipedia
As always, you're so generous with other peoples money...
How about this: Don't wait for the mandate that you must hand over any discretionary income, for "the good of society". Set the example. The IRS will be only too happy to accept any extra money you wish to send in.
No more money for any luxuries like going to the movies, eating out once in awhile, maybe just a drive to relax. Nope, that's all a waste of resources, and just selfish, really. Just send in any of that discretionary money, for the good of society.
My wife and I rarely do those things now....
Now the total load they need to support. It's a drop in the bucket and not centralized where needed. Just like EVs solar and wind take a hit in the winter.List of energy storage power plants - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
When I worked for Gould/GNB we made backup power storage for ATT and other telecoms. Some were huge lead acid cells as big as a 6 ft man in arrays underground as big as foot ball fields. When the AGM batteries came out we were making them to fill up huge warehouses. This was all just for telecoms.
You have no idea of the scale that is needed. And we already shut down 80% of the coal plants.
Very true. I think it would be their choices to make rather than mandate.
Some "gas stations" really just want the permit and sell gas way too expensive and use the lot for auto repair in reality as well.
