Should gas stations be mandated to have chargers as well?

[Shannow]

No, typical grid planning has contingency planned capacity (I'm sure @MVAR and @Shannow could provide some examples from their areas) which is the amount of instantaneous loss the grid can be expected to tolerate without going down. Here in Ontario, that capacity is 2x Darlington units, or roughly 1,800MW of ~13,000MW of nuclear capacity.

LOR1 (Lack of Reserve) 1 is same - the gap is the two largest scheduled generators.
LOR2 - down to the single largest generator as the contngency - that triggers the RERT - market participants can volunteer to cut their load and get paid for the freed MW, or do things like fire up back up generators (e.g. at airports).

Reliability and Emergency Reserve Trader (RERT)

aemo.com.au

LOR3 is not enough to go around, so start shedding.

Funnily, LOR2 is increasingly common.

 

[cptbarkey]

They will increasingly become more environmental and motorist friendly with widespread adoption.

No they wont.

 

[kschachn]

Cuz we'll be using more and more green energy to power them. Plus battery technology will become much better.

Again, this shows you really have no idea what you’re talking about.

 

[02SE]

If they are convenience store stations like most are they could increase sales while people are waiting. Remember fast charging is on the way!

So the benevolent government comes along, and mandates that you MUST build a gas station, install X number of EV chargers, and you absolutely must use your own money, or get a loan (if you can) if your life savings isn't enough. You have absolutely no choice.

Now how do you feel about the mandate?

 

[JeffKeryk]

This premise of this post just makes no sense. ICE and EV are different, using a typical gas station to charge an EV assumes they are similar.

Heck, when I was a kid there were service stations that provided both work and fuel. Those stations are long gone.
By the way I loved my gas jock job. I worked 11 hour days on Sundays, pumped gas, did oil changes, etc.

 

[Rmay635703]

Water quality. I get that MTBE isn’t all that toxic, but MTBE died after several leaks affected groundwater taste. Going back to MTBE is a nonstarter.

What’s better is the whole reason to use oxygenates is no longer valid.

We don’t drive carbureted cars to any significant extent making it of no benefit on fuel injected cars (which have o2 sensors and OBDII tech)

 

[y_p_w]

This premise of this post just makes no sense. ICE and EV are different, using a typical gas station to charge an EV assumes they are similar.

Heck, when I was a kid there were service stations that provided both work and fuel. Those stations are long gone.
By the way I loved my gas jock job. I worked 11 hour days on Sundays, pumped gas, did oil changes, etc.

There are still a few left. Typically two service bays with lifts and maybe a limited selection of tires that are left out in the sun (not a good idea other than advertising that they can do repairs). I think most might do Smog Checks these days. I’ve seen some where the gas pumps are gone but they’re still running auto repair as an independent business. As well as some that just modified and use the former service bays as storage areas.

There’s one around here that was converted to Smog Check only. I think they sublease.

Union 76 had their commercials with the station owner “Murph” who was also the lead mechanic.



I recall Shell stations had a brand for their service stations. Looked it up, and it was AutoCare.

 

[ZZman]

So the benevolent government comes along, and mandates that you MUST build a gas station, install X number of EV chargers, and you absolutely must use your own money, or get a loan (if you can) if your life savings isn't enough. You have absolutely no choice.

Now how do you feel about the mandate?

I don't agree with it because you are saying they are making forcing someone to build a whole new station. I am talking adding to an already existing one.

 

[ZZman]

Again, this shows you really have no idea what you’re talking about.

Are you saying we won't be getting more and more energy from green energy? We have already seen different battery technologies coming out using different minerals. Charging times will become much faster and ranges far longer.

 

[y_p_w]

What’s better is the whole reason to use oxygenates is no longer valid.

We don’t drive carbureted cars to any significant extent making it of no benefit on fuel injected cars (which have o2 sensors and OBDII tech)

I’m pretty sure it helps meet the demand for higher octane rated fuels. Fuel ethanol has an octane rating of maybe 105 AKI. The other way would just be make as much high octane fuel using distillation and cracking, and then dispose of the fuel that can’t be sold.

 

[ZZman]

No they wont.

Why not?

 

[02SE]

I don't agree with it because you are saying they are making forcing someone to build a whole new station. I am talking adding to an already existing one.

LOL.

It is still the gas station owner on the hook for the cost. No different than if they FORCED you to build a new station with EV chargers to their specs.

You sure are anxious to spend OPM (Other Peoples Money), just as long as YOU don't have to do the same...

 

[TheLastWord]

This premise of this post just makes no sense. ICE and EV are different, using a typical gas station to charge an EV assumes they are similar.

Heck, when I was a kid there were service stations that provided both work and fuel. Those stations are long gone.
By the way I loved my gas jock job. I worked 11 hour days on Sundays, pumped gas, did oil changes, etc.

You need to spend some time in rural America - off the interstates, away from Silicon Valley, the flyover zone where the crops and cattle are grown. Many stations are present. I have relatives in SW Missouri who own one. And they are not alone. There are associations, conventions, lobbyists, etc. for them.

 

[ZZman]

LOL.

It is still the gas station owner on the hook for the cost. No different than if they FORCED you to build a new station with EV chargers to their specs.

You sure are anxious to spend OPM (Other Peoples Money), just as long as YOU don't have to do the same...

All about what is better for society as a whole. Are you all about money or do you care about the environment and future of our kids?
If I had a business and it was a law then I would do what was required. That is how laws work right?

 

[ZZman]

LOL.

It is still the gas station owner on the hook for the cost. No different than if they FORCED you to build a new station with EV chargers to their specs.

You sure are anxious to spend OPM (Other Peoples Money), just as long as YOU don't have to do the same...

Did it bother you when businesses were mandated to be handicap accessible?

 

[OVERKILL]

Are you saying we won't be getting more and more energy from green energy? We have already seen different battery technologies coming out using different minerals. Charging times will become much faster and ranges far longer.

What battery technologies have both faster charge/discharge capability and higher capacity?

 

[02SE]

All about what is better for society as a whole. Are you all about money or do you care about the environment and future of our kids?
If I had a business and it was a law then I would do what was required. That is how laws work right?

As I said, you're all for spending other peoples money, just not your own.

If the Gov came along and mandated you spend every last dime you had "For the good of society" would you be so cavalier?

I already know the answer, as these demands for others to step up, while you don't, are nothing new...

 

[SHOZ]

100% backup? Not likely.
Without exception, no source of electricity runs full time. Coal, nuclear and gas plants—or conventional resources—periodically experience unexpected outages, and they all need to be turned off periodically for routine maintenance.

Nukes run at 95%, 24/7 except for downtime. Coal can be throttled but takes a while. But if needed they can run 95%, 24/7. Illinois has 7 nukes at around 2GW each. No way is there any backup. There may be excess they can get from somerer else. Windfarms are typically quite rhythmic with the speed increasing during the day and dying off at night around here. Solar is by definition sporadic. So when they factor in grid load capacity the wind and solar can at best be consider 25% of nameplate and will not get any better.

They can't even get permits for any more solar, wind or transmission lines around here without forcing it on the landowners. It's foolish to change complete directions without the proper infrastructure in place.

 

[bullwinkle]

Ohio has been converting farmland to solar in a big way east of here, hooking up to the PJM main grid transmission feed lines, but I’m not sure if any storage has been planned, or if solar will just feed the daytime grid. I’ve said for a while-if an EV could handle being charged off a solar array, and then function as a Powerwall at night, or even in an outage situation, it would be a much more palatable alternative. Otherwise we’re just swapping one type of fossil fuel for another, or some people will have to “get over” their irrational fear of nukes…

 

[y_p_w]

LOL.

It is still the gas station owner on the hook for the cost. No different than if they FORCED you to build a new station with EV chargers to their specs.

You sure are anxious to spend OPM (Other Peoples Money), just as long as YOU don't have to do the same...

There’s always little things that are the cost of doing business. Gas stations here are required to pump gas for disabled customers at a self service price. Provide air and water for customers. And bathrooms if located less than 660 feet from an interstate highway. And they can’t mandate a minimum purchase, or even if it’s a convenience store purchase.

I found something on a requirement that there be at least two alternative fuel sources (hydrogen, CNG, biodiesel, EV charging) if there are at least 10 gas/diesel pumps in a new installation.

Rancho Cucamonga mandates all future gas stations have space dedicated to zero-emission vehicles

New rules in Rancho Cucamonga mean all future gas stations will be required to dedicate some of their space to zero-emission vehicles.

abc7.com

The article also mentions Petaluma, California as banning new gas stations and expansion, but apparently there more in Sonoma County, including several cities and unincorporated parts of the county. The main disagreement was over a new gas facility for use by the rental car companies at the county airport.

https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/news/sonoma-county-supervisors-approve-ban-on-new-gas-stations-extra-pumps/

A divided Sonoma County Board of Supervisors on Tuesday approved a ban on new retail gas stations or expansions of existing stations in unincorporated areas of the county.​

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The split vote was prompted largely by differences in how to treat fueling needs for rental cars at the Charles M. Schulz-Sonoma County Airport.​

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Supervisors David Rabbitt and James Gore also had concerns about broad language in the proposal that would have precluded conversion of gasoline pumps for hydrogen fuel — enough so that Gore, at least, would have voted against it in any case, he said Wednesday.​

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All five supervisors appeared in favor of the central concept of the zoning ordinance amendment to halt the installation of new fossil fuel pumps in recognition of the transition to electric vehicles and other alternative fuels.​

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But Supervisor Lynda Hopkins said it would be hypocritical to ban retail stations while allowing the airport to install a 12,000-gallon fuel tank for use by car rental agencies until more of the fleet is electric and Pacific Gas & Electric can support enough power to charge that fleet.​

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Airport manager Jon Stout said it would be about five or six years before PG&E had made the necessary grid upgrades to supply the consolidated rental facility. In the meantime, fewer than 3% of the cars rented at the airport are electric vehicles, he said. Most gasoline-powered rentals refuel at a gas station near the highway.​