Yes, consumption has not dropped from 200 miles per quart average. And the lack of startup smoke seems to be a one-time occurence. We're not sure if most of this consumption is the oil cloud at startup cold. Next time he takes a 200 mile or so trip, this will become apparent.
Severely sludged 2001 Avalon 3.0 and ARX-ideas?
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It would be odd to have all that oil dripping past the valve seals ..if that's even the source. One could imagine that if too much oil was pooled in the intake that it could simply drain overnight into the combustion chamber of one open valve. Smoke would depend on which valve was open overnight.
Naturally that depends on a few combinations being present.
Naturally that depends on a few combinations being present.
We changed the oil at their house this evening just before sitting down to watch the Superbowl. The oil was not particularly dark or sooty, compared to the first load we drained out. This oil had just under 1000 miles on it. We used Castrol GTX 5W-30 with the longer 3600 oil filter from Advance Auto. We then added 10 oz of Auto-rx, starting a new cleaning cycle. Right now he has a measuring bottle marked off in 2 oz increments and the plan is to add an additional 2 oz with each quart of makeup oil to keep a steady, effective level of ARX in the sump to keep a good cleaning cycle going. He has 24 oz left for now, so that will get him up to 12 quarts of makeup oil to add, if needed.
I witnessed the oil cloud at startup, but then very quickly it went down to nothing at all. We put some fuel system cleaner in the gas tank to help deal with the oil burning deposits in the combustion chambers and on the valves. just before draining the oil, I also ran some cleaner into the pcv hose with the engine running to help clean things up from all the oil burning through the combustion chambers. Not really sure if all the cylinders are involved in this current oil-burning condition. After the fuel system cleaner is run through completely, they will continue to use a small amount in each tank to keep things cleaner while all the oil burning is going on.
Something else we both noticed was that the oil flows into the engine a lot faster now while pouring into the hole. This was a welcome change, and showed me that something good and observable was accomplished with this most recent rinse.
I witnessed the oil cloud at startup, but then very quickly it went down to nothing at all. We put some fuel system cleaner in the gas tank to help deal with the oil burning deposits in the combustion chambers and on the valves. just before draining the oil, I also ran some cleaner into the pcv hose with the engine running to help clean things up from all the oil burning through the combustion chambers. Not really sure if all the cylinders are involved in this current oil-burning condition. After the fuel system cleaner is run through completely, they will continue to use a small amount in each tank to keep things cleaner while all the oil burning is going on.
Something else we both noticed was that the oil flows into the engine a lot faster now while pouring into the hole. This was a welcome change, and showed me that something good and observable was accomplished with this most recent rinse.
You are really on the ball as we say. Great stuff.
Good update. Should be interesting to see if the consumption comes down some now.
What is the color of this cloud of smoke that is coming out of the exhaust.
I would check where your PCV Valve hose goes into the intake manifold, take the hose off and if there is any oil it might be a good idea to rig a catch can between the PCV valve and the intake manifold.
This may be where you are getting the puff of smoke on startup, since there may be a slight amount of oil in the intake manifold.
Ford may not have put valve cover baffles in there, and without the baffles oil mist can get sucked into the intake manifold.
I would check where your PCV Valve hose goes into the intake manifold, take the hose off and if there is any oil it might be a good idea to rig a catch can between the PCV valve and the intake manifold.
This may be where you are getting the puff of smoke on startup, since there may be a slight amount of oil in the intake manifold.
Ford may not have put valve cover baffles in there, and without the baffles oil mist can get sucked into the intake manifold.
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The other night we discussed what the engine's condition and oil burning was before starting in with Auto-Rx. I had been under the impression that it was not burning much oil beforehand, but he says it was burning some, because he was having to add several quarts between oil changes for the first time. This all started last summer or fall when he began to notice some consumption. It had gradually become worse up until the smoke out the tailpipe really started to worry him. So all in all, it appears that the consumption may or may not have increased some once we started in with ARX. I'm not sure why it would increase, and am hoping that we can get it back down to a more tolerable level as well as getting rid of the smoking out the tailpipe at startup.
c3po-one thing is for sure, Ford definitely did not put any baffles in the valve covers of this Toyota engine! (Sorry, I couldn't resist!)
c3po-one thing is for sure, Ford definitely did not put any baffles in the valve covers of this Toyota engine! (Sorry, I couldn't resist!)
Originally Posted By: bmwtechguy
The other night we discussed what the engine's condition and oil burning was before starting in with Auto-Rx. I had been under the impression that it was not burning much oil beforehand, but he says it was burning some, because he was having to add several quarts between oil changes for the first time. This all started last summer or fall when he began to notice some consumption. It had gradually become worse up until the smoke out the tailpipe really started to worry him. So all in all, it appears that the consumption may or may not have increased some once we started in with ARX. I'm not sure why it would increase, and am hoping that we can get it back down to a more tolerable level as well as getting rid of the smoking out the tailpipe at startup.
c3po-one thing is for sure, Ford definitely did not put any baffles in the valve covers of this Toyota engine! (Sorry, I couldn't resist!)
I must have been thinking about my Mercury Marauder which is a Ford product when I was writing about the PCV issue.
The other night we discussed what the engine's condition and oil burning was before starting in with Auto-Rx. I had been under the impression that it was not burning much oil beforehand, but he says it was burning some, because he was having to add several quarts between oil changes for the first time. This all started last summer or fall when he began to notice some consumption. It had gradually become worse up until the smoke out the tailpipe really started to worry him. So all in all, it appears that the consumption may or may not have increased some once we started in with ARX. I'm not sure why it would increase, and am hoping that we can get it back down to a more tolerable level as well as getting rid of the smoking out the tailpipe at startup.
c3po-one thing is for sure, Ford definitely did not put any baffles in the valve covers of this Toyota engine! (Sorry, I couldn't resist!)
I must have been thinking about my Mercury Marauder which is a Ford product when I was writing about the PCV issue.
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Quote:
Ford definitely did not put any baffles in the valve covers of this Toyota engine!
It would have been a nice gesture. They surely would do it for a Mazda.
Ford definitely did not put any baffles in the valve covers of this Toyota engine!
It would have been a nice gesture. They surely would do it for a Mazda.
I'm hoping the oil consumption and burning is due to stuck rings. This might clear up if you ever get the thing de-gunked.
Suggest pulling the pan and cleaning the oil intake screen ASAP. This should completely fix the low oil pressure issue.
After that, keep doing what you're doing - 1K or less oil + filter changes, long runs, maybe adding little solvent. If the valve cover isn't too terribly hard to access, remove it every few weeks to check your progress. Or maybe an inspection mirror in the oil fill hole?
When/if it starts to look semi-clean, try a change or two of good SYN like M1 or PP. These might(?) clean a little better.
Good luck.
Suggest pulling the pan and cleaning the oil intake screen ASAP. This should completely fix the low oil pressure issue.
After that, keep doing what you're doing - 1K or less oil + filter changes, long runs, maybe adding little solvent. If the valve cover isn't too terribly hard to access, remove it every few weeks to check your progress. Or maybe an inspection mirror in the oil fill hole?
When/if it starts to look semi-clean, try a change or two of good SYN like M1 or PP. These might(?) clean a little better.
Good luck.
He does not currently have a low oil pressure issue. The oil light flickering on and off went away with the first ARX cleaning. He and his wife are aware that if the oil light does come on, they are to shut if off asap to keep from ruining the engine.
I really doubt that the oil burning is due to stuck rings since the massive oil burning takes place only at cold startup. He is losing most of the oil during cold starts in the mornings and after work. A significant amount of oil is getting into one or more combustion chambers while the engine sits for longer periods. After starting the engine cold, it takes a bit initially to burn it out, then the exhaust is clear after that.
There is little chance we will use any type of synthetic oil in this engine until the consumption drops down to a much lower level and the engine is much cleaner inside. Regular oil costs enough and does a better job with the Auto-Rx according to the instructions.
I really doubt that the oil burning is due to stuck rings since the massive oil burning takes place only at cold startup. He is losing most of the oil during cold starts in the mornings and after work. A significant amount of oil is getting into one or more combustion chambers while the engine sits for longer periods. After starting the engine cold, it takes a bit initially to burn it out, then the exhaust is clear after that.
There is little chance we will use any type of synthetic oil in this engine until the consumption drops down to a much lower level and the engine is much cleaner inside. Regular oil costs enough and does a better job with the Auto-Rx according to the instructions.
Do you happen to know the reason that an engine in this state ultimately fails? I mean did the mechanic explain the actual process or is it known to anyone on here?
The reason I ask is you may be working against an impending time line. If it turns out you don't have a lot of time you may have to take calculated but drastic measures.
Doctors take that approach with very sick people. Prescribing medicines that can be quite damaging to human health. The logic being that they are trying to prevent the patient from dying.
I've read of people putting in a few quarts of transmission fluid with motor oil. Someone mentioned kerosene in this thread earlier I believe. How does Break In oil work, could that benfit this situation. I'm not recommending any of this. Rather I'm suggesting that you may need to attack this issue with something that is not normally good for an engine.
The reason I ask is you may be working against an impending time line. If it turns out you don't have a lot of time you may have to take calculated but drastic measures.
Doctors take that approach with very sick people. Prescribing medicines that can be quite damaging to human health. The logic being that they are trying to prevent the patient from dying.
I've read of people putting in a few quarts of transmission fluid with motor oil. Someone mentioned kerosene in this thread earlier I believe. How does Break In oil work, could that benfit this situation. I'm not recommending any of this. Rather I'm suggesting that you may need to attack this issue with something that is not normally good for an engine.
It seems that the main cause of a "ventilated block" or a total engine failure on these sludged engines is the blocking of the oil pickup screen on the bottom of the oil pump pickup tube. The sludge buildup eventually blocks the ability of the oil pump to draw in adequate oil to pump and create oil pressure with. Once oil pressure bottoms out, then usually a rod bearing will fail and things can get ugly fast.
We are trying to bring this engine back to serviceable condition without mechanical repair if possible. If this experiment works, it will attest to ARX's ability to remedy an extreme case of sludge in a known sludge motor. If he gets an oil light before that happens, we will probably have to pull down the pan for cleaning as well as the valve covers before driving any more.
Yes, there has been a lot of call for solvents of one kind or another by folks, but we are trying the most gentle, yet proven chemistry first to prevent a shock to the sludge deposits that would most likely send the motherload to the oil pickup screen and choke out the oil pump quickly.
The dealer said this engine had days, maybe weeks until failure. Here we are nearly 2 months later, maybe on borrowed time.
We are trying to bring this engine back to serviceable condition without mechanical repair if possible. If this experiment works, it will attest to ARX's ability to remedy an extreme case of sludge in a known sludge motor. If he gets an oil light before that happens, we will probably have to pull down the pan for cleaning as well as the valve covers before driving any more.
Yes, there has been a lot of call for solvents of one kind or another by folks, but we are trying the most gentle, yet proven chemistry first to prevent a shock to the sludge deposits that would most likely send the motherload to the oil pickup screen and choke out the oil pump quickly.
The dealer said this engine had days, maybe weeks until failure. Here we are nearly 2 months later, maybe on borrowed time.
I understand. Well I am definitely rooting for you guys. Keep up the good work.
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I think what retires a few of these vehicles is one day the customer comes in ..the tech, knowing of the issue, takes a peek ..sure nuff finds the sludge. Service manager, just as he did this time, hands the customer anywhere from a $1000 (remove covers and clean) - $7000 estimate (new engine) ...trade in time at some other dealer.
bmwtechguy,
Your right at this point you have nothing to lose by trying ARX however I'd give it a heavy duty dosing of an engine flush instead of using RX first. If the engine is that bad off with heavy sludging using a heavy duty flush might free-up and get more crud out of the engine.
Try flushing first and then go to ARX and take it for a long drive to get that oil hot to melf down all that bad oil. This is not a quick fix but rather may take a few months to work.
If the engine gives out before your final treatment then at least you gave it a good try.
The Toyota dealership guys are good BUT their job is to bring in revenue and taking there recommended route might not be necessary. Keep money in the bank as long as you can and get some interest before you drop that easy grand down.
Durango
Your right at this point you have nothing to lose by trying ARX however I'd give it a heavy duty dosing of an engine flush instead of using RX first. If the engine is that bad off with heavy sludging using a heavy duty flush might free-up and get more crud out of the engine.
Try flushing first and then go to ARX and take it for a long drive to get that oil hot to melf down all that bad oil. This is not a quick fix but rather may take a few months to work.
If the engine gives out before your final treatment then at least you gave it a good try.
The Toyota dealership guys are good BUT their job is to bring in revenue and taking there recommended route might not be necessary. Keep money in the bank as long as you can and get some interest before you drop that easy grand down.
Durango
Please keep us up to date on this. This is the most interesting thread on BITOG (to me) in quite some time!
All I can say for now is that everything is about the same. He has been out of town and has his 15 year old son checking the oil every second day and adding oil/ARX as needed. The biggest thing he said is that the oil is now darkening quite a bit with this latest cleaning cycle. He is set to change the filter at 1500 miles and keep with this cycle longer than the previous (first) cleaning.
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