Severely sludged 2001 Avalon 3.0 and ARX-ideas?
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Originally Posted By: cougargnw
Im a little confused. Why did c3po start posting for for BMWtechguy? And did the engine let go?
I had asked bmtechguy a question via PM about Amsoil Engine Flush and he gave me an update about this car that he is working on.
I saw where someone posted about any updates, I figured bm was busy working on the car so I let everyone know what was going on, since I did not know when he would get around too telling everybody.
I do not think the engine has let go, he just has to put some things back together.
Im a little confused. Why did c3po start posting for for BMWtechguy? And did the engine let go?
I had asked bmtechguy a question via PM about Amsoil Engine Flush and he gave me an update about this car that he is working on.
I saw where someone posted about any updates, I figured bm was busy working on the car so I let everyone know what was going on, since I did not know when he would get around too telling everybody.
I do not think the engine has let go, he just has to put some things back together.
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Originally Posted By: cougargnw
Im a little confused. Why did c3po start posting for for BMWtechguy? And did the engine let go?
I read it that bmwtechguy wasn't ready to post about it until he was done. c3po just couldn't wait that long
Im a little confused. Why did c3po start posting for for BMWtechguy? And did the engine let go?
I read it that bmwtechguy wasn't ready to post about it until he was done. c3po just couldn't wait that long
After all work was completed late last night, started engine and no smoke at all, except for the stuff burning off the exterior of the exhaust and other areas. Oil pressure came up enough to turn off the pressure light while doing some extended cranking to get it started, so that was good. Engine quiet and smooth just like before. More updates and link to some pictures after I figure out how to do all that. I took before, during, and after pictures with the camera phone and will upload them off the card later. Any recommendations as to where park these pictures for everyone to go look at them?
go to photobucket.com
+1 for Photobucket.
great fix bmwtg
if you would have dumped a load of caustic solvents in that engine, the carbon sludge buildup would have plugged the oil pump pickup and toasted a bearing the first time out.
slow cleaning is the secret. lots of engines out there with compromised head oil drain back holes. caused by poor oil change maintenance, high engine temps, poor engine coolant flow design, ad naseum.
Auto-RX is the elixir of engine cleaning but would NOT have opened up those head oil drain holes ever.
drop the oil pan next and clean the oil pickup. RX will not soften and dissolve the excessively hardened carbon chips.
i would change the oil filter every 500 miles for the next 10k. lay in a supply of SuperTech WallyWorld specials, the Far East is good for something, cheap filters that work
the sludging started long before your BIL bought that piece of Far East [censored] that the manuf. ripped customers off on.
Cliff
if you would have dumped a load of caustic solvents in that engine, the carbon sludge buildup would have plugged the oil pump pickup and toasted a bearing the first time out.
slow cleaning is the secret. lots of engines out there with compromised head oil drain back holes. caused by poor oil change maintenance, high engine temps, poor engine coolant flow design, ad naseum.
Auto-RX is the elixir of engine cleaning but would NOT have opened up those head oil drain holes ever.
drop the oil pan next and clean the oil pickup. RX will not soften and dissolve the excessively hardened carbon chips.
i would change the oil filter every 500 miles for the next 10k. lay in a supply of SuperTech WallyWorld specials, the Far East is good for something, cheap filters that work
the sludging started long before your BIL bought that piece of Far East [censored] that the manuf. ripped customers off on.
Cliff
Oil pans already cleaned and reinstalled. Oil pump pickup tube/screen was so bad that even the strongest carb cleaner would not touch it. When you see the pics you will know why it could not be cleaned and he had to buy a new one. There must have been SOME open screen somewhere under the sheet metal with the one inch hole opening to the pump screen. Before the first load of ARX, his oil light was flickering and staying on briefly at times. I think the ARX must have opened up/liquified some area of the screen with sludge that was not as encrusted, and it stayed open enough to flow adequately for the next 6000 miles of ARX treatment until he decided it was time to pull this engine apart due to no improvement in consumption. In fact it may have been getting worse as all drainback tubes in rear bank were plugged. Oil had to travel the length of the head toward the "front" of the engine (passenger side) to drain down through the only drainback passage remaining on the rear bank of the engine.
We ran a load of Peak 5W-30 and half a can of engine flush for first run after job was completed. This was while car was stationary and this first load came out surprisingly dark. He is now on another load of Peak 10W-30 and new filter this time with 6 oz ARX dose (that is all I had left in stock!) to clean up any areas that could not be cleaned without further disassembly. This oil change will be cut short at about 2000 miles or so, and then he will run one oil change with Maxlife about 3-4k miles to condition seals a bit (no leaks however right now). Yes I know you are not supposed to run HM oil as a rinse oil, but this is not a full cleaning dose, just my idea of a modified, stronger maintenance dose.
After that the plan is to run whatever oil 3-5k miles with 4 oz maintenance dose of ARX. I told him to run 10W-30 year round for our temps, or run 5W-30 only in winter. Just my preference for his engine.
Now I just need to figure out the best way to get these pictures uploaded to photobucket from my camera's memory card. I want to put captions on there, too, to help everyone know what they are looking at. Pictures are always worth a thousand words. I don't think the owner, my brother in law, has a clue as to what it took to fix his car. But the pictures will help. There are nearly 40 of them.
We ran a load of Peak 5W-30 and half a can of engine flush for first run after job was completed. This was while car was stationary and this first load came out surprisingly dark. He is now on another load of Peak 10W-30 and new filter this time with 6 oz ARX dose (that is all I had left in stock!) to clean up any areas that could not be cleaned without further disassembly. This oil change will be cut short at about 2000 miles or so, and then he will run one oil change with Maxlife about 3-4k miles to condition seals a bit (no leaks however right now). Yes I know you are not supposed to run HM oil as a rinse oil, but this is not a full cleaning dose, just my idea of a modified, stronger maintenance dose.
After that the plan is to run whatever oil 3-5k miles with 4 oz maintenance dose of ARX. I told him to run 10W-30 year round for our temps, or run 5W-30 only in winter. Just my preference for his engine.
Now I just need to figure out the best way to get these pictures uploaded to photobucket from my camera's memory card. I want to put captions on there, too, to help everyone know what they are looking at. Pictures are always worth a thousand words. I don't think the owner, my brother in law, has a clue as to what it took to fix his car. But the pictures will help. There are nearly 40 of them.
If the pics are on your computer, you can just upload them from photobucket, or are they only on the memory card?
When you post some pics on the forum, just put it in the reply box and underneath them, write your captions.
Can't wait to see the pics.
When you post some pics on the forum, just put it in the reply box and underneath them, write your captions.
Can't wait to see the pics.
I know the dealer charges approximately $750 to change spark plugs, timing belt, and water pump. He is getting all this and a complete desludge. Anyone have an opinion as to how much I should charge the bloke for labor? Parts/materials were about $300. I do know that his company cut everyone's pay by %10, and he is my B-I-L, but the job took 2 or 3 times as long as I expected due to the difficult cleanup, and after all, he is the one who neglected his engine.
I called him early on in the job and told him it would cost nearly twice as much as originally estimated. He did mention that he is about to redo his mortgage at a lower rate and could walk away wih some cash at that point. I want to give him a bill that is fair to me and him. I basically gave up all my free time for one and a half weeks to do this job for them.
Here were his options from Toyota:
new engine for $7k
rebuild his for $5-6k
used engine for $3500 (no extra charge for sludge already inside the used engine)
or...
keep with the ARX and adding oil every 200 miles until the engine finally chokes itself out. Turns out Toyota does not offer the option of manually cleaning up the engine as I did, for whatever reason. Maybe not enough easy profit involved, or no one wants the nasty cleanup job with sludge flying everywhere at times.
If you were in this situation, what would you expect to have to pay for labor? Remember this is for all the maintenance jobs AND the desludge. This is also assuming the cleanup has corrected the oil consumption problem, which I believe it has. I can say that there is absolutely no smoke now. He told me how much money he has and I told him again how much I am billing for this job. Let's just say he was not all that understanding. Part of the problem is he will not have enough to finish paying me until he does the refinance. I'm not saying my figures here yet because I am interested in what others here will have to say without influence from me. He came to me because he could not find any other affordable solution and could not take on a car payment. In other words he was sort of desperate for a solution. I actually did not really need or want to do the job, and I told him that up front, but finally agreed reluctantly.
I called him early on in the job and told him it would cost nearly twice as much as originally estimated. He did mention that he is about to redo his mortgage at a lower rate and could walk away wih some cash at that point. I want to give him a bill that is fair to me and him. I basically gave up all my free time for one and a half weeks to do this job for them.
Here were his options from Toyota:
new engine for $7k
rebuild his for $5-6k
used engine for $3500 (no extra charge for sludge already inside the used engine)
or...
keep with the ARX and adding oil every 200 miles until the engine finally chokes itself out. Turns out Toyota does not offer the option of manually cleaning up the engine as I did, for whatever reason. Maybe not enough easy profit involved, or no one wants the nasty cleanup job with sludge flying everywhere at times.
If you were in this situation, what would you expect to have to pay for labor? Remember this is for all the maintenance jobs AND the desludge. This is also assuming the cleanup has corrected the oil consumption problem, which I believe it has. I can say that there is absolutely no smoke now. He told me how much money he has and I told him again how much I am billing for this job. Let's just say he was not all that understanding. Part of the problem is he will not have enough to finish paying me until he does the refinance. I'm not saying my figures here yet because I am interested in what others here will have to say without influence from me. He came to me because he could not find any other affordable solution and could not take on a car payment. In other words he was sort of desperate for a solution. I actually did not really need or want to do the job, and I told him that up front, but finally agreed reluctantly.
What I would charge has a lot to do with how much I like him, and how much I want him to continue to like me. Assuming you're not trying to provoke a blood feud, I'd probably charge around half the shop rate (around here that would work out to around 50-60/hour) for actual time and give him the parts at cost or maybe a 10% markup for my time rounding them up. If he's not willing to pay that, give him his car back and tell him it's the last time you'll be giving up your free time to help him. I'm all for cutting friends and family a break, but my time is worth something too.
If you never want to speak to him again, the sky's the limit.
If you never want to speak to him again, the sky's the limit.
How many hours did you put in? You say 300.00 for parts. If you don't mind me asking, what do you want to charge him? You sound like you're trying to be fair but you also put in alot of time, so it's only fair that you get compensated for it.
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$1000 plus the parts and supplies
he'd be out a minimum $2000 at the dealer shop and still not know what he had in the engine
he has basically a cherry clean car interior/exterior with a now clean engine that should go another 100k miles with a quality synthetic oil changed every 3k miles and a lifetime of maint. doses of ARX. i would consider LCD's LC20 in the oil also as additional protection, used it religiously in dozens of engines from B&S 3 hp to 500hp Cummins.
i would also consider a MolaSoak. the rings must be jacked by carbon from all the oil dumping into the cylinders. get the ring grooves clean and they'll start doing their job again, oil usage will improve more.
will take several treatments of PEA polyetheramine Techron Concentrate or GumOut Regane in thru the throttle body and in the gas tank to clean the intake valves, intake ports and injector tips
did it get a thermostat change? i'd go with something other than Toyota, those engines have major problems and the thermostat may be one.
i love Stant Premium stainless steel.
he now owns an expensive car to maintain. i'd dump the toad when used auto prices climb back up in a year or two.
he'd be out a minimum $2000 at the dealer shop and still not know what he had in the engine
he has basically a cherry clean car interior/exterior with a now clean engine that should go another 100k miles with a quality synthetic oil changed every 3k miles and a lifetime of maint. doses of ARX. i would consider LCD's LC20 in the oil also as additional protection, used it religiously in dozens of engines from B&S 3 hp to 500hp Cummins.
i would also consider a MolaSoak. the rings must be jacked by carbon from all the oil dumping into the cylinders. get the ring grooves clean and they'll start doing their job again, oil usage will improve more.
will take several treatments of PEA polyetheramine Techron Concentrate or GumOut Regane in thru the throttle body and in the gas tank to clean the intake valves, intake ports and injector tips
did it get a thermostat change? i'd go with something other than Toyota, those engines have major problems and the thermostat may be one.
i love Stant Premium stainless steel.
he now owns an expensive car to maintain. i'd dump the toad when used auto prices climb back up in a year or two.
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didn't see the $750 for the other extra work
make that $2000 for a total. the extra $250 is for the sludge cleanup on clothes, body and finger nails.
only thing dirtier than working on a sludged engine is working on a diesel, especially an old Jimmy 2 stroker. those old time Jimmy mechs are tie dyed black for life.
make that $2000 for a total. the extra $250 is for the sludge cleanup on clothes, body and finger nails.
only thing dirtier than working on a sludged engine is working on a diesel, especially an old Jimmy 2 stroker. those old time Jimmy mechs are tie dyed black for life.
It's tough to deal with family and friends when it comes to business, the mix usually doesn't work well. I would calculate the hours put into the job, and the cost of the materials w/o a markup on them. I would take the hourly rate a shop charges and give a 10%-20% discount on that and call it good.
Figuring what an engine would cost, or how much you saved by using a less expensive procedure vs replacing the engine, a partial rebuild, or what ever could have been done really isn't fair IMO. Time and materials and a small discount over what a shop would charge is more than fair.
Don't forget you don't have the costs associated with owning a shop, and that should be reflected in your price. Doing it this way will help keep a friend a friend.
JMO
Figuring what an engine would cost, or how much you saved by using a less expensive procedure vs replacing the engine, a partial rebuild, or what ever could have been done really isn't fair IMO. Time and materials and a small discount over what a shop would charge is more than fair.
Don't forget you don't have the costs associated with owning a shop, and that should be reflected in your price. Doing it this way will help keep a friend a friend.
JMO
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
It's tough to deal with family and friends when it comes to business, the mix usually doesn't work well. I would calculate the hours put into the job, and the cost of the materials w/o a markup on them. I would take the hourly rate a shop charges and give a 10%-20% discount on that and call it good.
Figuring what an engine would cost, or how much you saved by using a less expensive procedure vs replacing the engine, a partial rebuild, or what ever could have been done really isn't fair IMO. Time and materials and a small discount over what a shop would charge is more than fair.
Don't forget you don't have the costs associated with owning a shop, and that should be reflected in your price. Doing it this way will help keep a friend a friend.
JMO
Brother In Law is a relative.
Friend is never a relative.
It's tough to deal with family and friends when it comes to business, the mix usually doesn't work well. I would calculate the hours put into the job, and the cost of the materials w/o a markup on them. I would take the hourly rate a shop charges and give a 10%-20% discount on that and call it good.
Figuring what an engine would cost, or how much you saved by using a less expensive procedure vs replacing the engine, a partial rebuild, or what ever could have been done really isn't fair IMO. Time and materials and a small discount over what a shop would charge is more than fair.
Don't forget you don't have the costs associated with owning a shop, and that should be reflected in your price. Doing it this way will help keep a friend a friend.
JMO
Brother In Law is a relative.
Friend is never a relative.
Yeah, we are nominal friends, but certainly not close. He has never offered to help me on any projects or anything I have done, nor have I asked for his help. I had done some work on his 94 F150 302 back a few years ago, and the repairs were done right and he has not had any repairs since. He got a very good deal and I made some money, but not a lot.
I actually billed him a total of 1500 dollars for the whole shebang. It seemed high to him since I had originally estimated $800 for everything (special brother-in-law price). But after it took nearly 3 times as long (nearly 60 hours) to complete, I decided without hesitation that it was worth a whole lot more. It is the nastiest and unhealthy job I have done in a while, due to the solvents required. I tried to minimize the use of the air gun since it vaporizes the solvents and particles so much more than without. I figure the job would have cost him a total of 2 grand at another shop and he probably would not have had nearly as effective or complete a cleaning job as what I accomplished.
I actually billed him a total of 1500 dollars for the whole shebang. It seemed high to him since I had originally estimated $800 for everything (special brother-in-law price). But after it took nearly 3 times as long (nearly 60 hours) to complete, I decided without hesitation that it was worth a whole lot more. It is the nastiest and unhealthy job I have done in a while, due to the solvents required. I tried to minimize the use of the air gun since it vaporizes the solvents and particles so much more than without. I figure the job would have cost him a total of 2 grand at another shop and he probably would not have had nearly as effective or complete a cleaning job as what I accomplished.
Sounds like you gave him a fair price for a good job. Parting with money for some people is like giving up a limb. Don't feel bad and don't second guess yourself. Mechanics in NY are going for $80/hr up to $100/hr. He got one helllllllllllllll of a deal by NY standards.
In my years as a flat rate tech I always just charged however many hours I had in x my flat rate pay to all relatives and friends this limited my being taken advantage of and was still a considerable discount to them, I was a tech for Toyota in South Florida during the worst of the sluge engine issues and cleanup is definatly a messy job, we found the only way to clean up the pickups and heads completely on a totally sluged motor was to soak overnight in B-12 Chemtool, we tried everything on the market and this was our only sucess but it is a nasty chemical. and as bmw tech found we actually had more failures do to oil not draining back from the head than we did with the pickups.
Nice job. Can't wait to see the pics!
Don't feel bad about being reasonably compensated for your hard work. You BIL sounds like a cheap-a$$ who was just trying to milk the family connection to save himself money.
Sounds like the kind that doesn't learn; unless you keep an eye on his maintenance, he'll get 'busy', and you'll go through this all over again (not all the work, but having the engine gunk up, etc...)
Don't feel bad about being reasonably compensated for your hard work. You BIL sounds like a cheap-a$$ who was just trying to milk the family connection to save himself money.
Sounds like the kind that doesn't learn; unless you keep an eye on his maintenance, he'll get 'busy', and you'll go through this all over again (not all the work, but having the engine gunk up, etc...)
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