Self-fulfilling prophecies and cars

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German cars are a headache.My family in the car business got rid of German cars because the dealership spent so much time and money keeping them running while they were on the lot.They also returned after being sold with angry owners. They were sold to small dealers.Most Japanese and American cars would be a better choice.
 
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For some time I've contended that the perception that Toyota, Honda, etc. are so superior to, say, domestics in general is partly psychological. Consumer: "I want a Honda because they are the best, the most durable, the cheapest to own. And in accordance with the superior intellect I exercise in making such a good purchase, I will maintain it to a T to protect my investment." Result? Honda lasts 15-20 years, goes 300K, and gets totaled or rusts out before its time. Timing belts every 100K, premium prices for parts which are installed by the dealership or an import mechanic, transmission flushes periodically, etc. Consumer: "Because this Chevy is a cheap domestic, putting a lot of money into it will only be a waste. So I'll change the oil when it strikes me and take it to the repair shop down the street because they're cheap. The check-engine came on at only 80,000 miles - intake gasket leak? Bah, what a heap! It's only 5 years old with 125K on it but I should sell it before it becomes a money pit." Result? Sells it to the OP's pizza delivery guy that changes Supertech every 6,000-20,000 mi. and DIY's everything in his apartment lot. Gives up the ghost at 299K.
 
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Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Originally Posted By: HoosierJeeper
My gripe with Toyota is that they were recalling fairly recent (05-10MY) Tacomas and 07-08 Tundras and some 4 runners for frame rust. Even my 1996 Jeep Cherokee's frame after 21 years in Illinois and WI is perfectly fine. I don't think frame rust on a 5-10 year old vehicle has been an issue for other makers besides Toyota. FJ Cruisers are known for cracking the inner fenders off road, something I've never seen on a Jeep. Sure my Jeeps might have more maintenance issues than a Toyota, but at least they're not going to break in half. Subjectively, I think they're ugly enough to stop a freight train at midnight so that keeps me away from them as well. 15 Jeep KL Limited V6: VWB 5W20 07 LR3 SE V8: VWB 5W30 05 Jeep KJ Limited: Maxlife 5W30 96 Jeep XJ Country:Pennzoil HM 10W40
Well, friend, some might call you a Jeep fanboi.... wink And FWIW, my son had some serious problems with his XJ Cherokee unibody after some offroading and we're not talking inner fenders. My boss had an 05 Jeep KJ that he claimed was the worst vehicle he ever owned. I like Jeeps, have had a couple. BTW, subjectively I think the Cherokee KL is one of the worst looking SUVs in production, right up there with Nissan Jukes and even uglier than our goofy RAV4. We all like/dislike different looks. Back to the OP's treatise,
My 05 KJ has been one of my best vehicles ever, FWIW. I'm guessing the XJ probably saw more offroading than what some of these FJs are breaking from. XJs aren't perfect, but again, has Jeep ever had to recall 8 year old vehicles for frames rusting out? Has anyone else? The KL...yeah it's not the best looking vehicle but there's some old Jeep styling cues if you squint enough. Works for what it is.
 
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OP is right in that there is something vehicular (self) esteem. Someone with a car held in high esteem would then self-evaluate its price/value at KBB's "high retail" as would others with the same car, and mindset. Suddenly the market is full of these high priced cars and then, see, high resale value! If a car needs brakes early, the driver might take the blame for being "hard on it" and neglect to report it as a "repair" in a survey... perhaps because "they still had some life in them, I just wanted peace of mind." Mercedes used to last forever because people wanted them to. They seem to have lost their way with that.
 
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The Mercedes thing is an interesting story. Long about the 90s they got sick of Lexus eating their lunch since Lexus offered 95% of the luxury quality feel at 60% the price and decided to compete on price and quality went down. I'm not a Mercedes expert at all but I recall reading it went something like that.
 
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I'm no MB expert, but even though my '82 300CD is the first one I'd ever even sat in, it's obvious it's a heck of a car. Complex, yes. But effective. I like a good ol' Chevy pickup (see sig) as much as anyone, but there is a reason the W123 chassis pushed along by the OM617 is held in high regard.
 
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Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
...in his Mitsubishi Lancer. His Lancer doesn't burn oil,
I just fell out of my chair laughing!!!
 
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There are always exceptions, but the law of averages wins out. The most reliable verhicles and the lowest cost of ownership I have owned have been Toyota. FWIW the higest have been Chevy. (I have lived half my life in the UK with a good share of British and European verhicles)
 
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Originally Posted By: ron17571
German cars are a headache.My family in the car business got rid of German cars because the dealership spent so much time and money keeping them running while they were on the lot.They also returned after being sold with angry owners. They were sold to small dealers.Most Japanese and American cars would be a better choice.
If only I had known... crackmeup
 
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Originally Posted By: eljefino
OP is right in that there is something vehicular (self) esteem. Someone with a car held in high esteem would then self-evaluate its price/value at KBB's "high retail" as would others with the same car, and mindset. Suddenly the market is full of these high priced cars and then, see, high resale value! If a car needs brakes early, the driver might take the blame for being "hard on it" and neglect to report it as a "repair" in a survey... perhaps because "they still had some life in them, I just wanted peace of mind." Mercedes used to last forever because people wanted them to. They seem to have lost their way with that.
Perception is reality. I'm amazed at the asking prices for CR-V's like mine, and the asking prices for a newer used Honda or Toyota SUV's. Doesn't makes sense to me but if people pay then that's what they are worth...
 
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My wife is a Japanese car fan and feels they are better cars,me I like Fords and Mopars and Buicks.In the time I have known her she has had 2 acuras and a honda. 1 Acura wrecked.It had no problems.Acura 2 -burnt valves twice 11 and a half months apart.The Honda she is driving now had around 110 k when we got it, loses a quart of oil every 300 miles or so.Does not smoke or stain the driveway the oil just disappears. My Buick now has 180k uses a qt every 3k.My Plymouth with the infamously leaky mitsu v6 loses a qt about evry 1200 miles or so.In my opinion I have had better luck with domestics.But my wife is happy with her imports and that is what counts.I just check her oil every other week and add some. Every one has their biases.Some are supported by fact and some are not.
 
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Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
Chryslers- oil burners Ford- 6F35 transmission issues Chevy - LS engine piston slap Honda - Odyssey/Pilot 5-speed transmission woes Toyota - multiple large safety recalls VW - Dieselgate Audi- "unintended acceleration" tired
Chrysler... everything except (some of) Jeep, the Cummins engine, and the Grand Caravan after the early 2000's. Ford... almost always a step behind Chevy. Chevy... have yet to work on a 6.0 with piston slap, but electronics blow. Honda... uhhh, everything about the Odyssey/Pilot/Ridgine drivetrain? Toyota... effective, just not conventional. And frame rust. VW... not a consumer's car after 100K. Audi... VW with more expensive/complex gadgets?
 
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Originally Posted By: HoosierJeeper
The Mercedes thing is an interesting story. Long about the 90s they got sick of Lexus eating their lunch since Lexus offered 95% of the luxury quality feel at 60% the price and decided to compete on price and quality went down. I'm not a Mercedes expert at all but I recall reading it went something like that.
That may be true, but they also acquired Chrysler at the time and quality was bad at that time. Once they got rid of Chrysler, things improved.
Originally Posted By: Alex_V
I'm no MB expert, but even though my '82 300CD is the first one I'd ever even sat in, it's obvious it's a heck of a car. Complex, yes. But effective. I like a good ol' Chevy pickup (see sig) as much as anyone, but there is a reason the W123 chassis pushed along by the OM617 is held in high regard.
Like all car makers, they go through a phase and some models are better than others. I think the C class gets ranked lower, they made a lot more of them and they were cheaper. Hyundai was once considered one of the worse car brands when they first came to the US. Now I still shake my head when I hear about how reliable they are but you hear some head scratchers of problems that they have that others don't. In the early days, their exhaust manifolds would rust out and leak, most American and Japanese cars made theirs thick enough so that it didn't happen. Anyway, I tend to follow the E class and the W211 certainly had more problems than average in the first few years, after the face lift in 2007, things improved, but they still had some problems that were just part of the design of the car The last generation, the W212 seems to be more reliable mechanically, had more cosmetic issues than the previous generation but at least those problems are cheaper than mechanical ones. The most recent ones also seem decent aside from some early electrical problems, of course it may also be too early to tell as you don't know of certain problems that may crop up til they hit the 50-100k range.
 
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I've retired my 84 Civic wagon with 445K from DD service to weekend duty. I replaced it with a 06 Scion xB 5-speed with 131K planning to run up the mileage as high as I can. So far so good. I was looking for a small utility vehicle that would be reliable and the xB fit the bill. It has one of the best small engines ever made, the 2NZ-FE that's in 25 or more different Toyota vehicles including the Yaris, world wide. There are probably more of these little 1.5L engines buzzing around today than any other engine. It has hydraulic lifters and a chain drive cam. It's at 134K miles and has not burned a drop of oil. There was nothing domestic or European that fit my needs that I could afford. With purchase price, tax, registration for the next year, insurance, new Michelins, all new fluids, 3 wiper blades, air filter, cabin filter and a wash and wax I'm into it for a few dollars under $5K. A long search was worth the effort. Cars in Southern California don't suffer from the weather. For my needs, if there was a better domestic vehicle that met my needs I'd certainly have considered it even if it was a domestic vehicle made in Mexico.
 

PeterPolyol

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wurlitzer, jimbrewer, Alex_V, eljefino: these guys get it, or at least they're willing to admit it wink Nevertheless, some of the replies have really (ironically) solidified the point. It's almost coming across as Stockholm Syndrome in some cases which is a very curious phenomenon itself eek
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Camrys haven’t burned oil since the 2.4L in 2009
You would be led to think so since the legal action is valid only up to 2008, however that's Toyota trying to get out of covering the entire production of the AZ (bad PR). Official TSBs for 2AZ oil consumption extend to 2011 atleast, or basically the entire production run. IRL, the story that actually matters, every AZ is officially elegible for excessive consumption with no shortage of complaints to back it. The AZ was a middling engine at best and there are plenty of equivalents that suffer no such problems. Typical overrate.
Originally Posted By: Cujet
I clearly follow your reasoning. However, the assumption that the majority of Honda and Toyota owners are "fanboi's" and in essence, willing to lie, is patently absurd
Thanks for admitting you get the point. Calling them fanbois is not even nessecary. I mena, there's fanaticism and there's outright-propaganda with the sole purpose of driving fanaticism. I wouldn't say fanatics "are willing to lie" so much as being sad (unwitting) victims of manipulation willing to believe and propagate a much more positive reality than exists. If anything, they're willing to lie to themselves. Fandom (not a flattering characterization btw) is every greedy corporations' marketing wet dream and they will propagate [censored] ideology and fluff to acquire it, even sinking to low lows like hiring people to astroturf fan clubs. Irrational behavior such as fanaticism is the very exploit that enables the incredible "forgiveness and grace" of a fan toward a slacking and badly behaved corporate entity. It's the hubris that's so powerful it can induce that Stockholm Sydrome like relationship.
Originally Posted By: pandus13
reply#2:(back on topic): using targeted marketing in pretty much all available media.
Correct, all businesses market. Toyota, however, markets too hard. They're so invested in keeping the dream alive that they've been royally screwing the 'real-life' part up. It's like they're a drunk/coked-out nutjob rich guy at a party that obviously thinks way too highly of himself and his skill level. You know, the guy so loaded that he thinks he can get any woman he wants and do whatever with em. Some women LOVE buying into that un-backed, juiced-up confidence kinda thing because that type of person is readily influenced by vague, layered optics while others can see right through the charade to a juiced up bag-man propped up with 100% artificial confidence. LOL
Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
I bought my Corolla knowing I was going to mile it out. Fast forward to today and I have 225K miles (360K km) on the odo and the only repair I had done was a water pump under warranty. Just tires...and the oil...I don't have to add any in between intervals...car self-prophesy fulfilled?
Definitely self-fulfilling. Congratulations on your stick-tuitiveness! It's not so rare for any car to reach those clicks with basic work; some might not even need a waterpump under warranty! No one ever said it was a lie, though. Corolla is Toyota's most reliable car IMO and above-average in the segment, but that comes with it's own costs: getting saddled with an automotive troglodyte. Also when Toyota has problems, they often have very stupid and safety related problems. Hard to screw up super-old tooling that doesn't promise much of anything other than "It exists". And stil the Corolla is far, far away from being the ideal or perfect car. All considered, I find it unacceptable myself; Toyota should be doing much better on the product merit front than it is. But let's just re-acquint ourselves with the moral compass of Toyota Motor Sales, shall we? http://lmgtfy.com/?q=toyota+tried+to+hide+recalls+defects
Originally Posted By: Wurlitzer
Why is it that we never hear about the "Chrysler reliability myth"? Or the "Ford reliability myth"? I've never seen a book entitled the "Chevy reliability myth". No one has ever said to me "you know, Mercedes really aren't as reliable as every one says." Honda and Toyota, on the other hand, routinely are mentioned in the same sentence as "reliability".
Well using exclusively domestic examples, for all the Ram Vans, Econolines, Panthers, and Vandura/Savana and all other Domestic fleet vehicles and pickups that find themselves in the latter half of 1M miles, you're not going to find a juiced-up romantic consumer base willing to vocally validate and sing their praises, they'll just die neglected and nameless. For that 500K Festiva or 2.2 Cavalier that serendipitously reachde it's mileage (without being specifically sought out for that purpose), they too will fade into obscurity without a mention. That's the way she goes, bud. Indyian said it: 'Perception is reality'
Originally Posted By: Leo99
Strange how you conflate recalls with reliability. It's just not that way.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
I really don't get what's the big deal about recall and TSB if the manufacturer foot the bill.
Was there ever an expectation for the manufacturer to NOT foot the bill? It's their screw-up. Why would anyone praise Toyota for doing what it's legally obligated to do to remedy their arrogance to rush to market half-baked products?? Regulators and their leagal-team's fears make them do it, not goodwill and customer diplomacy. Toyota has resources others don't have; massive profits. Toyota can beat everyone elses production cycles and put out a fully-tested, better qulity product if they wanted to. We all should expect them to be better, and more advanced AND reliable than everyone else, no exception. but they've been scraping by operating in the way a struggling company about to go bankrupt should be operating; getting burned on cost cut components, inadequate testing cycles and selling luddite engineering. Without Yamaha, Toyota would be even more exposed as the talentless suits they are. But this "I love it when Toyota recalls stuff, they're so awesome" is weird. What are you guys on because I want some of it for my Saturday night!
 

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Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Toyota makes some of the most trouble-free long term ownership vehicles out there. Simple fact.
That's not what happened.
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The Camry is also among the cheapest vehicles in its class at actual negotiated retail. Simple fact.
That's defintely not a rule. Let's say it was though, Camry is also historically the slowest evolving vehicle in it's class. Without the costs of re-engineering as much as say Honda, Nissan or Mazda, the Camry should be discounted even further. It's not even a trouble-free vehicle AT ALL. I've owned a Camry (97 XV20 2.2) and it was the least reliable car I've owned. Carefully compiled statistical data sets employed into marketing strategies didn't help me at all with the real problems I had with that car, but brand psychology helped me offload it at less of a loss than expected laugh
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We've owned but one Toyota over the past forty years and it was a good machine.
Then why the staunch advocacy with absolute statements? That doesn't make sense. I've owned three and the two newest ones were total let downs. Even the oldest one (92 Celica) I bought with a blown engine that got replaced and even the replacement engine had issues.
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There is a reason that certain marques (Toyota, Honda, Subaru) support very high resale values while others (Mercedes, BMW, Kia, Hyundai) don't.
I agree, there are reasons. shrug You're not lying.
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It isn't because the higher valued cars are junk and most buyers are uninformed. On the contrary, most buyers are keenly aware of the reliability and durability of most cars courtesy of the unbiased source that is Consumer Reports.
Now this is the real amusing stuff. So buyers are "keenly" aware of general vehicle engineering? I love feel-good abstractions as much as the next guy, but consumers are only keenly aware at which advertizing fodder is calling out for their attention the loudest. Consumers understand very little about many products, but especially cars. They don't even mind being treated like an abused housewife and called "consumers". How can they take exception to the way marketers view them, when they don't even get it? I hate to say it, but the consumer is not even close to being evenly matched to marketing psych, who spend trillions across decades scientifically researching ways to manipulate the mind of the consumer. Marketers are the experts, not consumers- it's not even a closely matched battle. Of course a part of keeping it that way is for marketers (or any dominative force) to stroke the needy ego of the consumer (us, all of us) by suggesting that we're getting too smart, too keen. Our preference for not being wrong or admitting naivite is stronger than inviting the strange feeling of cognitive dissonance and accepting that we're not as savvy as we think when it comes to tossing our money around. Please don't get misledby prima facie, this is not bashing and Toyota is not getting picked on. No need to hyper-rebel against the percieved meanie "bashing" poor, helpless Toyota Motor Sales. This is primarily about the ever increasing degeneracy in marketing, and the clients that pay them to degenerate. The tricks and the filth of the marketing industry deserve zero 'mercy and grace', and I hope that others can see the filth and tricks themselves. Toyota Motor, and every other corprate entity that shamelessly heavy-hands on the shilling, advertizing and marketing tricks can find themselves implicated into discussions like this. There are nice things to say about Toyota, but there are no nice things that NEED to be said about them. They're happy tooting their own horns (to the point of delusion) and they have plenty of uncompensated volunteers that respond very well to their long-term camapaigns.
 
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If the list is to be believed it's mileage gained from registrations so not easily faked (who would fake high mileage)?
 
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