Self-fulfilling prophecies and cars

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I'm glad I found this thread. Marketing and consumer loyalty to things and corporations that make them is truly astounding. I agree that it's not even close to being a fair match. Purest form of indoctrination I would say because most are willingly participating, something that was never achieved before.
 
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Originally Posted By: MCompact
Originally Posted By: ron17571
German cars are a headache.My family in the car business got rid of German cars because the dealership spent so much time and money keeping them running while they were on the lot.They also returned after being sold with angry owners. They were sold to small dealers.Most Japanese and American cars would be a better choice.
If only I had known... crackmeup
Haw! Agreed. The simple facts are that the overwhelming majority of all brands sold are satisfactory to most. Confirmation bias combined with highly effective marketing/indoctrination will allow almost anyone to say "my car is good/better/best". And there will always be complainers who will never be happy no matter what.
 
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Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Why would anyone praise Toyota for doing what it's legally obligated to do to remedy their arrogance to rush to market half-baked products?? Regulators and their leagal-team's fears make them do it, not goodwill and customer diplomacy. Toyota has resources others don't have; massive profits. Toyota can beat everyone elses production cycles and put out a fully-tested, better qulity product if they wanted to. We all should expect them to be better, and more advanced AND reliable than everyone else, no exception. but they've been scraping by operating in the way a struggling company about to go bankrupt should be operating; getting burned on cost cut components, inadequate testing cycles and selling luddite engineering. Without Yamaha, Toyota would be even more exposed as the talentless suits they are. But this "I love it when Toyota recalls stuff, they're so awesome" is weird. What are you guys on because I want some of it for my Saturday night!
Because the alternative as I mentioned is: your car is fine, now get the heck out of my dealership. Which is what many brands were doing back then, as well as a few brands here and there. (VW, I'm looking at you) Do you prefer that? Usually Honda and Toyota are better than the others (especially VW) on this matter. Hyundai was real bad before but they are better now. Screwed up a transmission design? extend the warranty to 100k miles and even if you are a few months over we'll take you in. Screwed up the engine design? We'll rebuild it with an updated piston / ring.
 
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Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: HoosierJeeper
The Mercedes thing is an interesting story. Long about the 90s they got sick of Lexus eating their lunch since Lexus offered 95% of the luxury quality feel at 60% the price and decided to compete on price and quality went down. I'm not a Mercedes expert at all but I recall reading it went something like that.
That may be true, but they also acquired Chrysler at the time and quality was bad at that time. Once they got rid of Chrysler, things improved.
Example of sell fulfilling prophecies right there. MB has quality problems so it must be something to do with Chrysler because Chrysler. Careful people, don't park near that Neon, lest you get a blown head gasket. Lol.
 
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Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Why would anyone praise Toyota for doing what it's legally obligated to do to remedy their arrogance to rush to market half-baked products?? Regulators and their leagal-team's fears make them do it, not goodwill and customer diplomacy. Toyota has resources others don't have; massive profits. Toyota can beat everyone elses production cycles and put out a fully-tested, better qulity product if they wanted to. We all should expect them to be better, and more advanced AND reliable than everyone else, no exception. but they've been scraping by operating in the way a struggling company about to go bankrupt should be operating; getting burned on cost cut components, inadequate testing cycles and selling luddite engineering. Without Yamaha, Toyota would be even more exposed as the talentless suits they are. But this "I love it when Toyota recalls stuff, they're so awesome" is weird. What are you guys on because I want some of it for my Saturday night!
Because the alternative as I mentioned is: your car is fine, now get the heck out of my dealership. Which is what many brands were doing back then, as well as a few brands here and there. (VW, I'm looking at you) Do you prefer that? Usually Honda and Toyota are better than the others (especially VW) on this matter. Hyundai was real bad before but they are better now. Screwed up a transmission design? extend the warranty to 100k miles and even if you are a few months over we'll take you in. Screwed up the engine design? We'll rebuild it with an updated piston / ring.
Totally agreed. If other mfgrs with issues simply took the cars in and quickly fixed the problem without the old "they all do that" baloney we would all be a lot happier!
 
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Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Totally agreed. If other mfgrs with issues simply took the cars in and quickly fixed the problem without the old "they all do that" baloney we would all be a lot happier!
So true. Just because "they all do that" doesn't mean it's right or even as designed. And if they all would spend more time actually diagnosing and listening to the customer rather than "we couldn't find the issue" I think all would be happier. IMHO the flat rate system is to blame as the techs have to turn around cars quickly and beat the book time to eat.
 

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Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Why would anyone praise Toyota for doing what it's legally obligated to do to remedy their arrogance to rush to market half-baked products?? Regulators and their leagal-team's fears make them do it, not goodwill and customer diplomacy. Toyota has resources others don't have; massive profits. Toyota can beat everyone elses production cycles and put out a fully-tested, better qulity product if they wanted to. We all should expect them to be better, and more advanced AND reliable than everyone else, no exception. but they've been scraping by operating in the way a struggling company about to go bankrupt should be operating; getting burned on cost cut components, inadequate testing cycles and selling luddite engineering. Without Yamaha, Toyota would be even more exposed as the talentless suits they are. But this "I love it when Toyota recalls stuff, they're so awesome" is weird. What are you guys on because I want some of it for my Saturday night!
Because the alternative as I mentioned is: your car is fine, now get the heck out of my dealership. Which is what many brands were doing back then, as well as a few brands here and there. (VW, I'm looking at you) Do you prefer that?
Including Toyota!!! Are you kidding? Toyota only plays responsible when a)they have a PR nightmare on their hand b)when federal regulators force their hand or a rare c)when their lawyers decide the hammer is going to drop without question and they better pre-empt legislation with a campaign.
Quote:
Usually Honda and Toyota are better than the others (especially VW) on this matter. Hyundai was real bad before but they are better now. Screwed up a transmission design? extend the warranty to 100k miles and even if you are a few months over we'll take you in. Screwed up the engine design? We'll rebuild it with an updated piston / ring.
You'll find across the industry and across the years, they all spend a good bit of time on the deny side, especially Honda and Toyota. You don't even have to think hard about it AT ALL, the mere presence of multiple class-actions against these darlings is really the single data point you need to know otherwise.
 
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I understand the logic of the OP, and there is probably truth to it. But every car will require repairs at some point. Financial concerns aside, the real question should be: "do I even want to bother fixing this rolling pile of scrap metal when it breaks down?". A car that is mind-numbingly boring or miserable to drive for whatever reason, is just not worth fixing. IMHO, the Camry generally falls into that category. The steering feel, brake feel, throttle response, and transmission logic are completely infuriating. They are designed and tuned for the lowest-common-denominator; the most ham-fisted, inept ignoramous that could possibly legally operate a motor vehicle; the kind of person that might claim a floormat causes uncontrollable acceleration. I would rather put a new engine in my Fiesta every 100K than drive a Camry for 400K with the same engine. grin drive crush
 
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^ I see you're a mechanic. No wonder you prefer the Fiesta. Replacing big ticket items on that car helps pay the bills I'm sure.
 

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SS, I think he was just making a point, not actually replacing his engine every 100K. But believing that people driving any "lesser" make of vehicle needs to regularly do repairs like that is kind of the crux of this whole issue, isn't it?
 
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PP, your words not mind referring to other vehicles as "lesser". I make it a habit not to talk negatively about other's choices unlike yourself.
 
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Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Totally agreed. If other mfgrs with issues simply took the cars in and quickly fixed the problem without the old "they all do that" baloney we would all be a lot happier!
So true. Just because "they all do that" doesn't mean it's right or even as designed. And if they all would spend more time actually diagnosing and listening to the customer rather than "we couldn't find the issue" I think all would be happier. IMHO the flat rate system is to blame as the techs have to turn around cars quickly and beat the book time to eat.
Agreed. I worked as a tech in a very busy private shop and the flat rate book was the reason for a great deal of shoddy work as guys struggled to make money by being fast. No one ever corrected anything else they found during repairs.
 
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This thread is absurd at its core. Sure we have some interesting discussion but the original premise is pretty silly. You can look at any auto manufacturer, large or small or in-between, and find something to pick at: design & engineering flaws, poor build quality, poor fit & finish, bad reliability, recalls, etc etc ad nauseum. (If you are looking for something, you are likely to find it.) You can also look at any auto manufacturer and find something to applaud: fuel economy, reliability, affordability, utility, quality materials, styling, etc etc blah blah. If I buy a Mazda 6, does that mean I think the Camry is junk? That I am a Mazda fanboy and have convinced myself that the Mazda is far superior to the Toyota? Or if I was shopping for a small SUV such as Honda CR-V or RAV4? If I choose one or the other, will someone assume that I am biased in some way? Or was it purely a financial decision because I could afford the nice, gently-used Honda? I have not yet owned a European marque. So far I have owned AMC, Ford, Ford, Ford, Mazda, Toyota, Chevy, Chevy. The only major failure was the 1965 Mustang transmission broke the output shaft. Literally, that's the only serious trouble I've had with any of my cars. The truth is, I have acquired all my vehicles in good used condition, taken good care of them with regular service and needed repairs, and not abused them. That's all I can tell you about what is behind my good experience with my vehicles. Pretty sure it's not because the 1992 Thunderbird was "superior" to the 2006 Tacoma. Apparently because all my experience with Japanese cars has been good, I am obligated to believe they are the best, and that American cars are [censored] (one broke down on me!) and European cars aren't worth the gamble (the unknown factor). So I will only buy Japanese cars, right? Actually, I look forward to owning a BMW or Mercedes sedan someday after I have played out the Corvette experience and ready to move on.
 
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Originally Posted By: ms21043
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: HoosierJeeper
The Mercedes thing is an interesting story. Long about the 90s they got sick of Lexus eating their lunch since Lexus offered 95% of the luxury quality feel at 60% the price and decided to compete on price and quality went down. I'm not a Mercedes expert at all but I recall reading it went something like that.
That may be true, but they also acquired Chrysler at the time and quality was bad at that time. Once they got rid of Chrysler, things improved.
Example of sell fulfilling prophecies right there. MB has quality problems so it must be something to do with Chrysler because Chrysler. Careful people, don't park near that Neon, lest you get a blown head gasket. Lol.
How could Dumbler quality go down because of Chrysler, the only thing Dumbler Benz took from Chrysler was the 18 billion$ Chrysler had at the merger of "equals" which Dumbler stole and then blamed everything that went wrong to the folks on this side of the pond
 
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