I can see his oil easily lasting 60k miles, even up to 80 - 100k, just IMO. You will be surprised how long it will last.
Seeking advice/opinions on bypass filter
- Thread starter Raidin
- Start date
- Status
Right now, the plan is to use Amsoil's SS oil, bypass and FF filters, and maybe a different air filter.
I will start out with UOAs every 5k miles until I'm confident with the new setup, unless you guys have better advice.
With all this in mind, I should still be saving money, even with all these UOAs.
Originally Posted By: WobblyElvis
The KISS principle, keep it you know....
Has anyone noticed he's changing oil every 5,000 miles?
First thing to do is triple the OCI.
I would run some Amsoil SS of Mobil 1 EP for a good length of time and pay for a UOA to establish just how often the oil needs to be changed. The driving conditions described are ideal. A 30,000 mile OCI may be acceptable as is.
You can't logically move forward without knowing where you are now.
Wobbly, are you saying I should run the Amsoil SS oil before I install the bypass filter and see how far I can go with UOAs?
I will start out with UOAs every 5k miles until I'm confident with the new setup, unless you guys have better advice.
With all this in mind, I should still be saving money, even with all these UOAs.
Originally Posted By: WobblyElvis
The KISS principle, keep it you know....
Has anyone noticed he's changing oil every 5,000 miles?
First thing to do is triple the OCI.
I would run some Amsoil SS of Mobil 1 EP for a good length of time and pay for a UOA to establish just how often the oil needs to be changed. The driving conditions described are ideal. A 30,000 mile OCI may be acceptable as is.
You can't logically move forward without knowing where you are now.
Wobbly, are you saying I should run the Amsoil SS oil before I install the bypass filter and see how far I can go with UOAs?
Last edited:
Whatever makes you sleep at night.
Originally Posted By: Raidin
Right now, the plan is to use Amsoil's SS oil, bypass and FF filters, and maybe a different air filter.
I will start out with UOAs every 5k miles until I'm confident with the new setup, unless you guys have better advice.
With all this in mind, I should still be saving money, even with all these UOAs.
Originally Posted By: WobblyElvis
The KISS principle, keep it you know....
Has anyone noticed he's changing oil every 5,000 miles?
First thing to do is triple the OCI.
I would run some Amsoil SS of Mobil 1 EP for a good length of time and pay for a UOA to establish just how often the oil needs to be changed. The driving conditions described are ideal. A 30,000 mile OCI may be acceptable as is.
You can't logically move forward without knowing where you are now.
Wobbly, are you saying I should run the Amsoil SS oil before I install the bypass filter and see how far I can go with UOAs?
Yes, I am suggesting that you use a quality synthetic, known for extended OICs, and drive at least 15,000 miles, then have a UOA done. Until you know how long the oil will last without a bypass filter, you really don't know the economic benefits of installing one. The type of driving you are doing appears to be very easy on the oil. I would not be surprised if you need not change oil for 20 - 30,000 miles.
Right now, the plan is to use Amsoil's SS oil, bypass and FF filters, and maybe a different air filter.
I will start out with UOAs every 5k miles until I'm confident with the new setup, unless you guys have better advice.
With all this in mind, I should still be saving money, even with all these UOAs.
Originally Posted By: WobblyElvis
The KISS principle, keep it you know....
Has anyone noticed he's changing oil every 5,000 miles?
First thing to do is triple the OCI.
I would run some Amsoil SS of Mobil 1 EP for a good length of time and pay for a UOA to establish just how often the oil needs to be changed. The driving conditions described are ideal. A 30,000 mile OCI may be acceptable as is.
You can't logically move forward without knowing where you are now.
Wobbly, are you saying I should run the Amsoil SS oil before I install the bypass filter and see how far I can go with UOAs?
Yes, I am suggesting that you use a quality synthetic, known for extended OICs, and drive at least 15,000 miles, then have a UOA done. Until you know how long the oil will last without a bypass filter, you really don't know the economic benefits of installing one. The type of driving you are doing appears to be very easy on the oil. I would not be surprised if you need not change oil for 20 - 30,000 miles.
dnewton3
Staff member
Originally Posted By: WobblyElvis
... Until you know how long the oil will last without a bypass filter, you really don't know the economic benefits of installing one.
You, sir Wobbly, are clearly not "in tune" with the current thinking that premium filters and oils are to be used for all occasions, as only the "best" (most expensive) option will suffice for any application. Further, your common sense and pragmatic understanding of how to establish a base-line, so that any potential improvement can be seen in context, is far outside the bounds of the typical BITOG mentality; that being: if something is good, then more of it must always be better.
You are hereby scolded for your reasonable and sensible approach, your anal-retentive oil changer card is revoked, and you're on double secret probation.
But seriously, it is refreshing to see someone actually grasp the idea of how to measure success, by comparing/contrasting alternatives in a meaningful manner, relative to each other. That is, frankly, a concept sorely missed around here. Kudos to you, sir.
... Until you know how long the oil will last without a bypass filter, you really don't know the economic benefits of installing one.
You, sir Wobbly, are clearly not "in tune" with the current thinking that premium filters and oils are to be used for all occasions, as only the "best" (most expensive) option will suffice for any application. Further, your common sense and pragmatic understanding of how to establish a base-line, so that any potential improvement can be seen in context, is far outside the bounds of the typical BITOG mentality; that being: if something is good, then more of it must always be better.
You are hereby scolded for your reasonable and sensible approach, your anal-retentive oil changer card is revoked, and you're on double secret probation.
But seriously, it is refreshing to see someone actually grasp the idea of how to measure success, by comparing/contrasting alternatives in a meaningful manner, relative to each other. That is, frankly, a concept sorely missed around here. Kudos to you, sir.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: WobblyElvis
Yes, I am suggesting that you use a quality synthetic, known for extended OICs, and drive at least 15,000 miles, then have a UOA done. Until you know how long the oil will last without a bypass filter, you really don't know the economic benefits of installing one. The type of driving you are doing appears to be very easy on the oil. I would not be surprised if you need not change oil for 20 - 30,000 miles.
Got it. Please keep in mind that the reason why I don't go beyond 5,000 miles (I wanted to go 10,000 as per OEM instructions) now is because I have been advised that after 5,000 miles, carbon buildup starts to bond and become sludge, which is near-impossible to completely remove or clean. Is this bad advice?
The whole reason for the bypass set up is to trap the carbon particles and filter them so they don't contaminate the oil, allowing me to go further on the oil.
Am I missing something?
Also, to zpinch, I sure hope I can go as long as you feel I might be able to. UOAs will have to determine this.
Yes, I am suggesting that you use a quality synthetic, known for extended OICs, and drive at least 15,000 miles, then have a UOA done. Until you know how long the oil will last without a bypass filter, you really don't know the economic benefits of installing one. The type of driving you are doing appears to be very easy on the oil. I would not be surprised if you need not change oil for 20 - 30,000 miles.
Got it. Please keep in mind that the reason why I don't go beyond 5,000 miles (I wanted to go 10,000 as per OEM instructions) now is because I have been advised that after 5,000 miles, carbon buildup starts to bond and become sludge, which is near-impossible to completely remove or clean. Is this bad advice?
The whole reason for the bypass set up is to trap the carbon particles and filter them so they don't contaminate the oil, allowing me to go further on the oil.
Am I missing something?
Also, to zpinch, I sure hope I can go as long as you feel I might be able to. UOAs will have to determine this.
Other than the initial up-front costs; there is nothing wrong with a good bypass filter installation, but if you are making these changes for the sole purpose of saving money it is logical to first understand the cost of the system as it is. From your original post it is easy to assume that the OCI can be extended far beyond the current 5,000 miles. If in doubt, have a UOA performed and the results will help alleviate the fear that the engine is going to sludge up.
Simply put, when faced with a decision it is best to eliminate as many unknowns as possible. and you currently don’t know the cost of operating this car without a bypass system.
I like the KISS principle, Keep It Simple Stu.
Simply put, when faced with a decision it is best to eliminate as many unknowns as possible. and you currently don’t know the cost of operating this car without a bypass system.
I like the KISS principle, Keep It Simple Stu.
Originally Posted By: WobblyElvis
Simply put, when faced with a decision it is best to eliminate as many unknowns as possible. and you currently don’t know the cost of operating this car without a bypass system.
I like the KISS principle, Keep It Simple Stu.
Why do you state that I don't know my running costs?
I don't have the figures with me, but my oil changes run about $80 using the OEM oil filter. Since I drive around 93k miles a year, I do about 18.5 oil changes a year at 5k OCIs. This means a rough estimate of $1,480 a year.
Using Amsoil SS oil (I believe the cost will very close to what I pay now), along with their FF filter (about the same cost at $20), and the bypass filter every other OCI at $40 (or $20 each OCI for simplicity's sake), I should be looking at about $100 per oil change. The $200 for the bypass unit, plus labor, is moot since it will pay for itself quickly.
At 20k OCIs, cost per year drops to $450 or so (dividing 18.5 oil changes by 4 to show the increase of the OCI from 5k to 20k). Changing the OCI and doing the math is simple from this point.
Simply put, when faced with a decision it is best to eliminate as many unknowns as possible. and you currently don’t know the cost of operating this car without a bypass system.
I like the KISS principle, Keep It Simple Stu.
Why do you state that I don't know my running costs?
I don't have the figures with me, but my oil changes run about $80 using the OEM oil filter. Since I drive around 93k miles a year, I do about 18.5 oil changes a year at 5k OCIs. This means a rough estimate of $1,480 a year.
Using Amsoil SS oil (I believe the cost will very close to what I pay now), along with their FF filter (about the same cost at $20), and the bypass filter every other OCI at $40 (or $20 each OCI for simplicity's sake), I should be looking at about $100 per oil change. The $200 for the bypass unit, plus labor, is moot since it will pay for itself quickly.
At 20k OCIs, cost per year drops to $450 or so (dividing 18.5 oil changes by 4 to show the increase of the OCI from 5k to 20k). Changing the OCI and doing the math is simple from this point.
You don't know the oil life span under the existing conditions until you perform a couple of UOAs. Only then do you know the current operating costs.
dnewton3
Staff member
I think the disconnect here is that Wobbly is talking about the potential for maximized opportunity, versus your arbitrary self-imposed limits.
To really see where a true ROI exists, you have to test each product situation until find it's limits, then pull back just a bit and operate within those confines as a condemnation point. Until you understand how far the "normal" system can go, then you'll never know how far the alternative must go to beat the relative cost increase.
Example ...
If you can safely extend the normal oil and filter to 15k miles, then your proposed BP system must go AT LEAST "X" times further, where "X" is the relative cost ratio.
Say your car can go 15k miles on normal oil and filter; the OCI cost might be $35.
If you add bypass, you have an initial cost you have to amortize, plus additional elemental costs, plus additional fluid volume cost, plus UOA costs for OCI extension. All that has to be offset by the fewer OCIs.
If it costs 3x more money to operate the BP system, then you have to (at the very least) run the OCI 3x further, or you'll never get the system to pay for itself.
But the critical thing to understand is that you MUST have a clear, realistic understanding of the real limits of the base choice, so that you can apply the relative ratio to the BP ROI calculation. If you impose arbitrary OCI limits, you're forcing the costs to conform to biased calculation.
To really see where a true ROI exists, you have to test each product situation until find it's limits, then pull back just a bit and operate within those confines as a condemnation point. Until you understand how far the "normal" system can go, then you'll never know how far the alternative must go to beat the relative cost increase.
Example ...
If you can safely extend the normal oil and filter to 15k miles, then your proposed BP system must go AT LEAST "X" times further, where "X" is the relative cost ratio.
Say your car can go 15k miles on normal oil and filter; the OCI cost might be $35.
If you add bypass, you have an initial cost you have to amortize, plus additional elemental costs, plus additional fluid volume cost, plus UOA costs for OCI extension. All that has to be offset by the fewer OCIs.
If it costs 3x more money to operate the BP system, then you have to (at the very least) run the OCI 3x further, or you'll never get the system to pay for itself.
But the critical thing to understand is that you MUST have a clear, realistic understanding of the real limits of the base choice, so that you can apply the relative ratio to the BP ROI calculation. If you impose arbitrary OCI limits, you're forcing the costs to conform to biased calculation.
Last edited:
You should also take some pictures of your engine bay so members can make some suggestions on mounting.
Holy cow, I just googled your car's engine bay and i can't see any free space! Unless the hood comes up quite a bit, then you can mount it similar to how I did my CRV.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I think the disconnect here is that Wobbly is talking about the potential for maximized opportunity, versus your arbitrary self-imposed limits.
I see what you two meant now. In my mind, I had to use 5k OCIs to avoid sludge build-up, and figured that the bypass filter should be able to remove the carbon deposits in the oil before they get large enough to bond and form sludge, which would allow me to use longer OCIs. Based on this, any bypass system will be cost-effective and worthwhile.
On the other hand, say I can go 15k miles without a bypass, then 20k with one, my savings based on my own calculations would be around $35 a year. With that cost savings in mind, it would take a few years to pay back the cost of the bypass unit before I get any ROI. In this view, the cost savings aren't really worthwhile.
I see your point, but I'd like to address the one issue no one has touched on, carbon/sludge. This is the focus of my entire plan. Does anyone have any thoughts or opinions on this? I've done a lot of research but can't find anything conclusive. I even called Blackstone Labs, and they told me they don't measure carbon deposits have any way to see evidence of sludge in the oil because it stays in the engine.
@zpinch: Once I determine that a bypass is indeed worthwhile, I was going to tackle the mounting issue next. My engine bay is small, you're right, but there's room behind the engine block. Reaching it is the problem. I would like to also consider looking at the engine bay from below to see if there's any space.
I think the disconnect here is that Wobbly is talking about the potential for maximized opportunity, versus your arbitrary self-imposed limits.
I see what you two meant now. In my mind, I had to use 5k OCIs to avoid sludge build-up, and figured that the bypass filter should be able to remove the carbon deposits in the oil before they get large enough to bond and form sludge, which would allow me to use longer OCIs. Based on this, any bypass system will be cost-effective and worthwhile.
On the other hand, say I can go 15k miles without a bypass, then 20k with one, my savings based on my own calculations would be around $35 a year. With that cost savings in mind, it would take a few years to pay back the cost of the bypass unit before I get any ROI. In this view, the cost savings aren't really worthwhile.
I see your point, but I'd like to address the one issue no one has touched on, carbon/sludge. This is the focus of my entire plan. Does anyone have any thoughts or opinions on this? I've done a lot of research but can't find anything conclusive. I even called Blackstone Labs, and they told me they don't measure carbon deposits have any way to see evidence of sludge in the oil because it stays in the engine.
@zpinch: Once I determine that a bypass is indeed worthwhile, I was going to tackle the mounting issue next. My engine bay is small, you're right, but there's room behind the engine block. Reaching it is the problem. I would like to also consider looking at the engine bay from below to see if there's any space.
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2014
- Messages
- 1,187
If space is a consideration, you may want to check into an NTZ bypass filter. They are quite a bit smaller than Amsoil; much more efficient, and less expensive.
However, they recommend cartridge changes at 15K miles, while an Amsoil BP-90 touts 60K filter changes, but NTZ cartridges are about half the cost of Amsoil replacement filters.
One of the BEST advantages NTZ has on Amsoil, in my opinion, is that they are totally unrestricted on mounting position. There are pictures on their website of them being mounted horizontally behind a car grille. Since they are pressure IN and OUT, you could (theoretically) mount it on your floorboard in the passenger compartment, on the roof, in the trunk, etc., just as long as you have high quality LINES that don't leak.
And yes, you must do UOA to determine your change interval; and it would only make sense to establish a baseline PRIOR to mounting the bypass.
I recently ran my Amsoil bypass system out to 20K on the oil until I got a lab report I didn't like so I changed the oil. Then I wanted to try out another bypass system and replumb the lines, so I closed the valve and ran 5K with no bypass, to buy me time to fabricate new brackets...I won't do THAT again; my particle counts were in the ISO 4406 range of 22."
My new system is a Puradyn in parallel with an NTZ. I MAY not ever have to change oil again; only change filter cartridges and top up. This WILL be determined by UOA, and I agree with dnewton that for Return on Investment of a bypass system you must run oil change intervals far beyond 15K. If your system will NOT do that, it's probably not economically feasible.
However, economically feasible has nothing to do with how you feel about taking care of your own car. You are the only one who needs to sleep peaceably with your own maintenance decisions. Have fun!
My own fun is that I'm enough of a Nazi on oil that my car, very shortly, will probably have the cleanest oil of any car in America. There are 9 US Patents under my hood within my lubrication system. Mwhahhhhh!!!
However, they recommend cartridge changes at 15K miles, while an Amsoil BP-90 touts 60K filter changes, but NTZ cartridges are about half the cost of Amsoil replacement filters.
One of the BEST advantages NTZ has on Amsoil, in my opinion, is that they are totally unrestricted on mounting position. There are pictures on their website of them being mounted horizontally behind a car grille. Since they are pressure IN and OUT, you could (theoretically) mount it on your floorboard in the passenger compartment, on the roof, in the trunk, etc., just as long as you have high quality LINES that don't leak.
And yes, you must do UOA to determine your change interval; and it would only make sense to establish a baseline PRIOR to mounting the bypass.
I recently ran my Amsoil bypass system out to 20K on the oil until I got a lab report I didn't like so I changed the oil. Then I wanted to try out another bypass system and replumb the lines, so I closed the valve and ran 5K with no bypass, to buy me time to fabricate new brackets...I won't do THAT again; my particle counts were in the ISO 4406 range of 22."
My new system is a Puradyn in parallel with an NTZ. I MAY not ever have to change oil again; only change filter cartridges and top up. This WILL be determined by UOA, and I agree with dnewton that for Return on Investment of a bypass system you must run oil change intervals far beyond 15K. If your system will NOT do that, it's probably not economically feasible.
However, economically feasible has nothing to do with how you feel about taking care of your own car. You are the only one who needs to sleep peaceably with your own maintenance decisions. Have fun!
My own fun is that I'm enough of a Nazi on oil that my car, very shortly, will probably have the cleanest oil of any car in America. There are 9 US Patents under my hood within my lubrication system. Mwhahhhhh!!!
Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
If space is a consideration, you may want to check into an NTZ bypass filter. They are quite a bit smaller than Amsoil; much more efficient, and less expensive.
However, they recommend cartridge changes at 15K miles, while an Amsoil BP-90 touts 60K filter changes, but NTZ cartridges are about half the cost of Amsoil replacement filters.
One of the BEST advantages NTZ has on Amsoil, in my opinion, is that they are totally unrestricted on mounting position. There are pictures on their website of them being mounted horizontally behind a car grille. Since they are pressure IN and OUT, you could (theoretically) mount it on your floorboard in the passenger compartment, on the roof, in the trunk, etc., just as long as you have high quality LINES that don't leak.
And yes, you must do UOA to determine your change interval; and it would only make sense to establish a baseline PRIOR to mounting the bypass.
I recently ran my Amsoil bypass system out to 20K on the oil until I got a lab report I didn't like so I changed the oil. Then I wanted to try out another bypass system and replumb the lines, so I closed the valve and ran 5K with no bypass, to buy me time to fabricate new brackets...I won't do THAT again; my particle counts were in the ISO 4406 range of 22."
My new system is a Puradyn in parallel with an NTZ. I MAY not ever have to change oil again; only change filter cartridges and top up. This WILL be determined by UOA, and I agree with dnewton that for Return on Investment of a bypass system you must run oil change intervals far beyond 15K. If your system will NOT do that, it's probably not economically feasible.
However, economically feasible has nothing to do with how you feel about taking care of your own car. You are the only one who needs to sleep peaceably with your own maintenance decisions. Have fun!
My own fun is that I'm enough of a Nazi on oil that my car, very shortly, will probably have the cleanest oil of any car in America. There are 9 US Patents under my hood within my lubrication system. Mwhahhhhh!!!
That sounds great! Yea, my engine bay is a bit restrictive, and as zpinch was inquiring about, my hood has very little clearance. My car is designed to be very aerodynamic.
My mechanic loves this sort of stuff. He believes in longevity, and has always been curious as to bypass systems in actual operation. He just hasn't seen one that's cost-effective for the average driver. He can't wait to take a look at a spent oil filter from one, so my car will be our test bed if I go through with it.
I looked at NTZ as it was mentioned before, but I can't figure out pricing or where I can get one without contacting the company. I can't tell if it's the AL-09 or the AFT-09. I saw a basic image of the AL-09, but realistically have no idea what size the actual unit for my application is, so that turned me off to NTZ. Also, if the filter element itself is half the cost, but needs a change every 15k, then I will spend more on replacement compared to Amsoil (as long as I go beyond 30k per element).
Just need some advice on the carbon issue. My research is still sketchy, but all signs point to various factors contributing to sludge build-up (oxidation, temperature, etc.), the fact that modern additives can handle cleaning most of it, and that modern engines don't have as much of an issue anymore.
If space is a consideration, you may want to check into an NTZ bypass filter. They are quite a bit smaller than Amsoil; much more efficient, and less expensive.
However, they recommend cartridge changes at 15K miles, while an Amsoil BP-90 touts 60K filter changes, but NTZ cartridges are about half the cost of Amsoil replacement filters.
One of the BEST advantages NTZ has on Amsoil, in my opinion, is that they are totally unrestricted on mounting position. There are pictures on their website of them being mounted horizontally behind a car grille. Since they are pressure IN and OUT, you could (theoretically) mount it on your floorboard in the passenger compartment, on the roof, in the trunk, etc., just as long as you have high quality LINES that don't leak.
And yes, you must do UOA to determine your change interval; and it would only make sense to establish a baseline PRIOR to mounting the bypass.
I recently ran my Amsoil bypass system out to 20K on the oil until I got a lab report I didn't like so I changed the oil. Then I wanted to try out another bypass system and replumb the lines, so I closed the valve and ran 5K with no bypass, to buy me time to fabricate new brackets...I won't do THAT again; my particle counts were in the ISO 4406 range of 22."
My new system is a Puradyn in parallel with an NTZ. I MAY not ever have to change oil again; only change filter cartridges and top up. This WILL be determined by UOA, and I agree with dnewton that for Return on Investment of a bypass system you must run oil change intervals far beyond 15K. If your system will NOT do that, it's probably not economically feasible.
However, economically feasible has nothing to do with how you feel about taking care of your own car. You are the only one who needs to sleep peaceably with your own maintenance decisions. Have fun!
My own fun is that I'm enough of a Nazi on oil that my car, very shortly, will probably have the cleanest oil of any car in America. There are 9 US Patents under my hood within my lubrication system. Mwhahhhhh!!!
That sounds great! Yea, my engine bay is a bit restrictive, and as zpinch was inquiring about, my hood has very little clearance. My car is designed to be very aerodynamic.
My mechanic loves this sort of stuff. He believes in longevity, and has always been curious as to bypass systems in actual operation. He just hasn't seen one that's cost-effective for the average driver. He can't wait to take a look at a spent oil filter from one, so my car will be our test bed if I go through with it.
I looked at NTZ as it was mentioned before, but I can't figure out pricing or where I can get one without contacting the company. I can't tell if it's the AL-09 or the AFT-09. I saw a basic image of the AL-09, but realistically have no idea what size the actual unit for my application is, so that turned me off to NTZ. Also, if the filter element itself is half the cost, but needs a change every 15k, then I will spend more on replacement compared to Amsoil (as long as I go beyond 30k per element).
Just need some advice on the carbon issue. My research is still sketchy, but all signs point to various factors contributing to sludge build-up (oxidation, temperature, etc.), the fact that modern additives can handle cleaning most of it, and that modern engines don't have as much of an issue anymore.
dnewton3
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Raidin
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I think the disconnect here is that Wobbly is talking about the potential for maximized opportunity, versus your arbitrary self-imposed limits.
I see what you two meant now. In my mind, I had to use 5k OCIs to avoid sludge build-up, and figured that the bypass filter should be able to remove the carbon deposits in the oil before they get large enough to bond and form sludge, which would allow me to use longer OCIs. Based on this, any bypass system will be cost-effective and worthwhile.
On the other hand, say I can go 15k miles without a bypass, then 20k with one, my savings based on my own calculations would be around $35 a year. With that cost savings in mind, it would take a few years to pay back the cost of the bypass unit before I get any ROI. In this view, the cost savings aren't really worthwhile.
I see your point, but I'd like to address the one issue no one has touched on, carbon/sludge. This is the focus of my entire plan. Does anyone have any thoughts or opinions on this? I've done a lot of research but can't find anything conclusive. I even called Blackstone Labs, and they told me they don't measure carbon deposits have any way to see evidence of sludge in the oil because it stays in the engine.
If you have an engine that is truly prone to sludge, then probably shorter OCIs may make sense. In a meaningful manner, I don't think any filter will really affect sludge, and here's why ...
Sludge forms on part surfaces as the oil oxidizes. Sludge does NOT travel. Because of that, the oil won't carry "sludge" to the filter, for the filter to remove it. A real formation of sludge typically happens in "hot spots" where very high heat profiles exist within an engine. This can be either due to high heat or low flow. The REAL topic is one of thermal transfer, or more specifically the lack thereof. It's not that the oil was carrying sludge to the spot, and then decided to deposit there. It's that the sludge started to form at that spot, most often due to a proper lack of thermal transfer. Sludge forms and stays put. Therefore, no filter can remove sludge because it's localized. The real problem comes into play when the sludge does two things:
1) restricts oil flow at that local spot, and has potential to grow to a point where it restricts flow overall (example would be hot spot in a head where it is near the return oil flow holes)
2) creates a "dead zone" of sorts because that spot no longer get the (less than necessary) thermal transfer. It can cause a hot spot to grow because it cannot sustain a thermal transfer rate sufficient to reduce the issue; so it grows. This local heating effect can lead to "overheating" (gasket issues, warped heads, cracks, etc).
And so, I don't really believe that "sludge" will ever be affected by any filter, not even a bypass filter. But I think I understand your concern, but you're not really stating it in a proper manner. You are concerned about soot and insolubles. Sludge, while related, is not the same thing. BP filters are excellent at removing oxidized particulate that is suspended in the lube, and stuff like soot. I agree with that. But it cannot affect a localized problem elsewhere. Therefore, you quest to alleviate "sludge" is not going to have the effect you wish with the BP as your method. Simply put, soot and oxidized insolubles travel, but sludge does not. If it cannot get to the filter, it cannot be filtered out. Sludge is the after-effect of the localized oxidation; it's not "fluid". Because it's not fluid, it won't ever be collected by a filter.
I shall take the time to also mention that other things can form "sludge", but I'm avoiding those simply because they are not in the context of what we're discussing. Coolant leaks into the oil system can cause the lube to essentially congeal due to chemical reactions, for example. This is not really "sludge" in the traditional sense, but shows similar effects. I'm not discussing that phenomenon at this point. I'm going to stay on point with the topic you asked about.
I do agree with you in that any filter will remove insolubles and soot; the efficiency of the media will also affect the rate and success of that removal. But another part of the equation is how the add-pack helps here.
The anti-agglomerates and detergents help keep the soot and insolubles small. In fact, their job is to keep the stuff so small that it does not co-join, and the particulate will stay in suspension. Only AFTER that effect is compromised (the add-pack is essentially overwhelmed) would any filter be effective. Soot starts out sub-micron in size; few if any filters can effectively work in this range, despite what claims you may read about. Most BP filters are very effective at 2-3um and larger, but most are not absolute below that. If they are allowed to stay in service long enough, they can approach being absolute at below 1um, but that is because they are blinding off! And the issue here is that as they approach that ever greater efficiency, that also means they are ever approaching a near-zero flow rate. So your excellent filter has a inverse relationship; as the efficiency does start to gain a foothold below 1um, the flow is so low that most all the oil is continuing in the FF filter and very little, if any, is actually moving in the BP element. It's the little secret that few recognize. For a BP filter to really efficient below 2um, it also gives up the flow because it's blinding media to achieve that greater efficiency. Now, I am speaking of typical BP elements you'd see in a car or light pick-up. Certainly you can "make" a system unique enough that it might avoid this issue for a sensible OCI duration, but it's size would be HUGE so as to have the flow offset and it would not practical in such applications. What you need to realize is that until the add-pack is compromised, it is not filtration that keeps soot/insolbules in control. As long as the stuff stays small enough, the filters do little. Certainly true of a FF filter, and it even applies to BP elements, though on an altered scale.
Blackstone is correct, they cannot measure "sludge". But they do track "insolubles". Other labs quantify soot and oxidation. Generally the Blackstone condemnation point for insolubles is .6 and other labs would use perhaps 3.0-3.5% soot as an upper limit. Those two ratings are not interchangeable, btw; don't confuse the two rating systems as each is tested differently and predicated on unique factors. Blackstone uses a diluted visual reference for their rating; the soot and oxidation are combined in an "insoluble" ranking. Other labs will individually call out soot and oxidation separately. Neither is superior IMO; they are simply different and you just need to understand which is in use, and what the fair condemnation limits are.
And so, until you test the "normal" application, to establish a base line of how far the normal oil/filter package can protect against your concern, then you have no idea where the ROI point exists.
If you have an engine known to be prone to sludge, then I would possibly advise against any OCI extension. Some engines sludge in the head (some Toy's, etc) where others coke up the rings (SL2s for example).
But if don't operate a "sludger" engine, then there are safe ways to establish your base-line limit. Choose your UOA service and ask them about how they track soot and oxidation, etc. Then start your UOA tracking. At the start of your testing, pop off the valve cover(s) and look at where you're at. You can also track compression to see if the rings are coking, as well as track the oil consumption. Then start your testings; start extending your OCIs. As they lengthen, track the UOA data along with visual observations and other criteria.
You see, to really understand how and why to extend an OCI is not just about pulling a sample and guessing about results on paper. A REALLY SUCCESSFUL maintenance program uses the following to maximize the ROI:
- UOAs
- PCs
- Visual clues
- Compression testing
- Consumption rates
- Historical/genealogical traits (engine family characteristics generally known to the industry)
So to understand where you base line exists, you must test, test, test. Then extend and test again. It is, frankly, time consuming and very expensive. It's often hard, if not impossible, to get small sized sumps to pay for such cash and effort expenditures. Most folks dabble and never can prove anything; they just guess and fall into the hyperbole of marketing hype. Does a bypass filter remove more particulate? Absolutely yes. Does it do so with a fair return on investment? Well - that depends ... You have to be able to prove a few things:
1) you are able to accurately define, measure and track the necessary parameters
2) you have the dedication, patience and money to let all alternatives settle into consistent performance such that "normal" data will be exhibited
3) you can reach the point of ROI where it's not a waste of time and money
Perhaps now you have a better understanding of what any filter can, and cannot do, and how to establish a real practical baseline. Then, you can experiment with OCI extensions with varying filtration packages.
This is why most BITOGers simply want to espouse rhetoric and mythology. They either don't understand, or they don't care to put the time/money into it. Most are, bluntly, either ignorant or arrogant. They cannot prove what they state, but that does not stop them from making baseless claims. And they will often point to some SAE "study" they have never fully read, nor comprehend, nor analytically reasoned through.
Yes - BP filtration is an excellent tool, but ONLY when you understand the benefits and limitations it presents. It is not a one-size fits all answer for everything, nor will it assure success or longer equipment lifecycle. It's a tool that must be used appropriately to be effective (does it perform to a clearly defined standard) and efficient (does it perform with a positive fiscal return).
My two cents, as it were. Take it or leave it.
.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I think the disconnect here is that Wobbly is talking about the potential for maximized opportunity, versus your arbitrary self-imposed limits.
I see what you two meant now. In my mind, I had to use 5k OCIs to avoid sludge build-up, and figured that the bypass filter should be able to remove the carbon deposits in the oil before they get large enough to bond and form sludge, which would allow me to use longer OCIs. Based on this, any bypass system will be cost-effective and worthwhile.
On the other hand, say I can go 15k miles without a bypass, then 20k with one, my savings based on my own calculations would be around $35 a year. With that cost savings in mind, it would take a few years to pay back the cost of the bypass unit before I get any ROI. In this view, the cost savings aren't really worthwhile.
I see your point, but I'd like to address the one issue no one has touched on, carbon/sludge. This is the focus of my entire plan. Does anyone have any thoughts or opinions on this? I've done a lot of research but can't find anything conclusive. I even called Blackstone Labs, and they told me they don't measure carbon deposits have any way to see evidence of sludge in the oil because it stays in the engine.
If you have an engine that is truly prone to sludge, then probably shorter OCIs may make sense. In a meaningful manner, I don't think any filter will really affect sludge, and here's why ...
Sludge forms on part surfaces as the oil oxidizes. Sludge does NOT travel. Because of that, the oil won't carry "sludge" to the filter, for the filter to remove it. A real formation of sludge typically happens in "hot spots" where very high heat profiles exist within an engine. This can be either due to high heat or low flow. The REAL topic is one of thermal transfer, or more specifically the lack thereof. It's not that the oil was carrying sludge to the spot, and then decided to deposit there. It's that the sludge started to form at that spot, most often due to a proper lack of thermal transfer. Sludge forms and stays put. Therefore, no filter can remove sludge because it's localized. The real problem comes into play when the sludge does two things:
1) restricts oil flow at that local spot, and has potential to grow to a point where it restricts flow overall (example would be hot spot in a head where it is near the return oil flow holes)
2) creates a "dead zone" of sorts because that spot no longer get the (less than necessary) thermal transfer. It can cause a hot spot to grow because it cannot sustain a thermal transfer rate sufficient to reduce the issue; so it grows. This local heating effect can lead to "overheating" (gasket issues, warped heads, cracks, etc).
And so, I don't really believe that "sludge" will ever be affected by any filter, not even a bypass filter. But I think I understand your concern, but you're not really stating it in a proper manner. You are concerned about soot and insolubles. Sludge, while related, is not the same thing. BP filters are excellent at removing oxidized particulate that is suspended in the lube, and stuff like soot. I agree with that. But it cannot affect a localized problem elsewhere. Therefore, you quest to alleviate "sludge" is not going to have the effect you wish with the BP as your method. Simply put, soot and oxidized insolubles travel, but sludge does not. If it cannot get to the filter, it cannot be filtered out. Sludge is the after-effect of the localized oxidation; it's not "fluid". Because it's not fluid, it won't ever be collected by a filter.
I shall take the time to also mention that other things can form "sludge", but I'm avoiding those simply because they are not in the context of what we're discussing. Coolant leaks into the oil system can cause the lube to essentially congeal due to chemical reactions, for example. This is not really "sludge" in the traditional sense, but shows similar effects. I'm not discussing that phenomenon at this point. I'm going to stay on point with the topic you asked about.
I do agree with you in that any filter will remove insolubles and soot; the efficiency of the media will also affect the rate and success of that removal. But another part of the equation is how the add-pack helps here.
The anti-agglomerates and detergents help keep the soot and insolubles small. In fact, their job is to keep the stuff so small that it does not co-join, and the particulate will stay in suspension. Only AFTER that effect is compromised (the add-pack is essentially overwhelmed) would any filter be effective. Soot starts out sub-micron in size; few if any filters can effectively work in this range, despite what claims you may read about. Most BP filters are very effective at 2-3um and larger, but most are not absolute below that. If they are allowed to stay in service long enough, they can approach being absolute at below 1um, but that is because they are blinding off! And the issue here is that as they approach that ever greater efficiency, that also means they are ever approaching a near-zero flow rate. So your excellent filter has a inverse relationship; as the efficiency does start to gain a foothold below 1um, the flow is so low that most all the oil is continuing in the FF filter and very little, if any, is actually moving in the BP element. It's the little secret that few recognize. For a BP filter to really efficient below 2um, it also gives up the flow because it's blinding media to achieve that greater efficiency. Now, I am speaking of typical BP elements you'd see in a car or light pick-up. Certainly you can "make" a system unique enough that it might avoid this issue for a sensible OCI duration, but it's size would be HUGE so as to have the flow offset and it would not practical in such applications. What you need to realize is that until the add-pack is compromised, it is not filtration that keeps soot/insolbules in control. As long as the stuff stays small enough, the filters do little. Certainly true of a FF filter, and it even applies to BP elements, though on an altered scale.
Blackstone is correct, they cannot measure "sludge". But they do track "insolubles". Other labs quantify soot and oxidation. Generally the Blackstone condemnation point for insolubles is .6 and other labs would use perhaps 3.0-3.5% soot as an upper limit. Those two ratings are not interchangeable, btw; don't confuse the two rating systems as each is tested differently and predicated on unique factors. Blackstone uses a diluted visual reference for their rating; the soot and oxidation are combined in an "insoluble" ranking. Other labs will individually call out soot and oxidation separately. Neither is superior IMO; they are simply different and you just need to understand which is in use, and what the fair condemnation limits are.
And so, until you test the "normal" application, to establish a base line of how far the normal oil/filter package can protect against your concern, then you have no idea where the ROI point exists.
If you have an engine known to be prone to sludge, then I would possibly advise against any OCI extension. Some engines sludge in the head (some Toy's, etc) where others coke up the rings (SL2s for example).
But if don't operate a "sludger" engine, then there are safe ways to establish your base-line limit. Choose your UOA service and ask them about how they track soot and oxidation, etc. Then start your UOA tracking. At the start of your testing, pop off the valve cover(s) and look at where you're at. You can also track compression to see if the rings are coking, as well as track the oil consumption. Then start your testings; start extending your OCIs. As they lengthen, track the UOA data along with visual observations and other criteria.
You see, to really understand how and why to extend an OCI is not just about pulling a sample and guessing about results on paper. A REALLY SUCCESSFUL maintenance program uses the following to maximize the ROI:
- UOAs
- PCs
- Visual clues
- Compression testing
- Consumption rates
- Historical/genealogical traits (engine family characteristics generally known to the industry)
So to understand where you base line exists, you must test, test, test. Then extend and test again. It is, frankly, time consuming and very expensive. It's often hard, if not impossible, to get small sized sumps to pay for such cash and effort expenditures. Most folks dabble and never can prove anything; they just guess and fall into the hyperbole of marketing hype. Does a bypass filter remove more particulate? Absolutely yes. Does it do so with a fair return on investment? Well - that depends ... You have to be able to prove a few things:
1) you are able to accurately define, measure and track the necessary parameters
2) you have the dedication, patience and money to let all alternatives settle into consistent performance such that "normal" data will be exhibited
3) you can reach the point of ROI where it's not a waste of time and money
Perhaps now you have a better understanding of what any filter can, and cannot do, and how to establish a real practical baseline. Then, you can experiment with OCI extensions with varying filtration packages.
This is why most BITOGers simply want to espouse rhetoric and mythology. They either don't understand, or they don't care to put the time/money into it. Most are, bluntly, either ignorant or arrogant. They cannot prove what they state, but that does not stop them from making baseless claims. And they will often point to some SAE "study" they have never fully read, nor comprehend, nor analytically reasoned through.
Yes - BP filtration is an excellent tool, but ONLY when you understand the benefits and limitations it presents. It is not a one-size fits all answer for everything, nor will it assure success or longer equipment lifecycle. It's a tool that must be used appropriately to be effective (does it perform to a clearly defined standard) and efficient (does it perform with a positive fiscal return).
My two cents, as it were. Take it or leave it.
.
Last edited:
I had a super long post typed and I just deleted the entire thing...You have a basically new car that is going to see a metric buttload of miles; and it's a Lexus, not a Nissan Versa or Chevy Spark (the cheapest new cars of 2014)... Get a bypass filter installed ASAP because you're really racking up the miles. (By ASAP I don't mean pay for Next Day Air shipping. I mean talk to your mechanic this week or next about mounting/oil-supply/oil-return locations and bypass filter system brand/style. Do your homework but get your chosen bypass system installed within the next 1-2 months.
Second: You're wasting tons of money with 5K oil/filter changes. Your mechanic means well and has your best interests in mind; but 5K oil/filter changes with synthetic on a Japanese luxury car that sees 7K miles a month?!? That's 8-track thinking in a cloud-streaming digital world. (I HATE "cloud", I can't believe I just used it in a metaphor!) Go for a 10K oil/filter change and UOA. Check your oil at least weekly, top-off as needed.
Start your UOAs with your next oil/filter change. Get TBN, TAN, Particle Count. Get 2-3 10K UOAs to establish a baseline for TBN/TAN/Particle Count/Wear Metals. After 2-3 10K UOAs you should have a good idea of TBN/TAN baseline and you should have seen a drop in Particle Count (because somewhere in there you got the BP filter installed). Particle count is expensive, but you saved more than the cost of particle count by skipping an unnecessary 5K oil/filter change.
Now you have a bypass filter installed and a baseline for TBN/TAN/Particle count, based on UOA results stretch your OCI to 15K, 20K, or beyond; figure out if you should run 2 full-flow-filters per oil change or two oil changes per full-flow-filter. Change your bypass filter every other or every third full-flow-filter change. Cut your UOAs back to every other or every third (or every fourth) oil change (I'd say at least every 6 months based on your mileage but do them with an oil and/or filter change to minimize cost).
The engine will probably still be running sweet when the car goes to the crusher (because nobody is willing to buy a 600K mile car).
Side-note, change your primary O2 Sensor(s) and spark plugs every 75K-100K miles (I change mine at 50K - different vehicles, different driving conditions than you). You don't wait for your oil pressure warning light to come on indicating you have less than 5 PSI oil pressure before changing the oil, why would you wait for the check engine light to come on indicating that the O2 Sensor is basically dead before replacing the O2 Sensor? Every time I change primary O2 Sensor(s) I see a 1-2 MPG increase... Two cheap O2 sensors for an old body-style Tahoe (5.7L/350ci), self-installed, paid for themselves in one trip over the river and through the woods to grandmother's house (about 10-hours highway driving round-trip).
Second: You're wasting tons of money with 5K oil/filter changes. Your mechanic means well and has your best interests in mind; but 5K oil/filter changes with synthetic on a Japanese luxury car that sees 7K miles a month?!? That's 8-track thinking in a cloud-streaming digital world. (I HATE "cloud", I can't believe I just used it in a metaphor!) Go for a 10K oil/filter change and UOA. Check your oil at least weekly, top-off as needed.
Start your UOAs with your next oil/filter change. Get TBN, TAN, Particle Count. Get 2-3 10K UOAs to establish a baseline for TBN/TAN/Particle Count/Wear Metals. After 2-3 10K UOAs you should have a good idea of TBN/TAN baseline and you should have seen a drop in Particle Count (because somewhere in there you got the BP filter installed). Particle count is expensive, but you saved more than the cost of particle count by skipping an unnecessary 5K oil/filter change.
Now you have a bypass filter installed and a baseline for TBN/TAN/Particle count, based on UOA results stretch your OCI to 15K, 20K, or beyond; figure out if you should run 2 full-flow-filters per oil change or two oil changes per full-flow-filter. Change your bypass filter every other or every third full-flow-filter change. Cut your UOAs back to every other or every third (or every fourth) oil change (I'd say at least every 6 months based on your mileage but do them with an oil and/or filter change to minimize cost).
The engine will probably still be running sweet when the car goes to the crusher (because nobody is willing to buy a 600K mile car).
Side-note, change your primary O2 Sensor(s) and spark plugs every 75K-100K miles (I change mine at 50K - different vehicles, different driving conditions than you). You don't wait for your oil pressure warning light to come on indicating you have less than 5 PSI oil pressure before changing the oil, why would you wait for the check engine light to come on indicating that the O2 Sensor is basically dead before replacing the O2 Sensor? Every time I change primary O2 Sensor(s) I see a 1-2 MPG increase... Two cheap O2 sensors for an old body-style Tahoe (5.7L/350ci), self-installed, paid for themselves in one trip over the river and through the woods to grandmother's house (about 10-hours highway driving round-trip).
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2014
- Messages
- 4,118
I've seen sludge in oil pans and under rocker covers. Neither are "hot spots". Sludge can form anywhere as oil oxidizes. Doesn't even need high heat. Just use it too long. Or, have a PCV problem with moisture accumulation. There are different types of sludge. It can be deposited and cleaned from anywhere.
Bypass filter can prevent sludge. It is an added sump, oil cooler, and moisture absorber... 3 out of 4 issues that most sludgers have inadequacies with. The 4th is the oil pump(pump size, pump flow, pump bypass, and oil psi). Not even worth addressing the pump's issues.
Oversized filter as an added sump was VAG way of dealing with 1.8T sludge. Ford also went the opposite, or confused way, going from small filter to big and back to small or whatever with the ecoboost 3.5... makes you wonder if cost/packaging trumped what an engineer wanted.
Plenty of older engines used smaller filters in passenger vehicles but a 1.5-2x sized filter when engine was put in a work application(truck). Whether bypass or full flow or sump size, additional filtration/fluid capacity is not even worth debating.
I've rebuilt sludged engines, cleaned sludged engines, used oversized filters, installed bypasses, and prevented sludge from ever occurring in known problem engines. Guess what, a bypass filter just works. There is no paper or study or test that can prove that wrong. Whether you benefit or not depends on your engine or your goals, and how much time you want to waste waiting in line for an oil change, or by doing it yourself.
I'd say that I can give you an essay of nonsense from my couch or I can just tell you from my experience...bypass filter will clean and prevent sludge. I have cleaned a sludged engine by installing a bypass, and topping off the oil as needed. The element would clog rapidly. It took almost 10 elements to clean out that engine, with each element lasting longer than the previous. Someone is under and over estimating the detergent/dispersant capability of an oil at the same time. Ever work on an engine? ever install a bypass? ever own a sludge monster? ever drive a single engine over 500k miles without a rebuild? I have!
Give you a little hint, UOA's are NOT even needed. Baseline is NOT even needed. Cost of UOA should not even be considered.
With a bypass filter, as long as the oil looks clean, it works. Replace the full flow as required by the filter or engine manufacturer. Replace the bypass when oil is dirty, usually when bypass flow is reduced or when bypass clogs...no specific mileage point for a bypass media quitting point. And, top off for consumption, if any, at each fillup.
I've worked on 300k engines, with bypass filters, that NEVER had a UOA, or a drain plug removal.... none with any mechanical issues, no oil consumption, perfect leak down and compression, great oil pressure, and no annoying noises. And, the argument that the vehicle to rust away, fall apart, or dissolve... if meaningless which seems to be an argument against any and all maintenance. There are vehicles from the 1950's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's still on the road. They don't dissolve away if someone keeps them up.
Raidin, both Wix and Fram show that your engine uses a cartridge filter. If true, then you WILL NOT BE ABLE TO USE A DUAL REMOTE BYPASS as seen in Zpinch's Honda's photo. Standalone only!
http://www.framcatalog.com/PartDetailWindow.aspx?b=F&pn=TG10358
http://wixfilters.com/Lookup/PartDetails.aspx?Part=57064
Economics are meaningless since time wasted is never mentioned. Trip to dealer or quicklube or mechanic, waiting in line, waiting for service, trip away from dealer.... my time is worth more than that service. As such, some of us don't want to service every OLM, 3750, 6 month, yearly, 5k, 7.5k.... And, a bypass that is easy to change in a few minutes which will allow me to work a few more hours every month or two. When calculating ROI, calculate the time to go to the dealer/quicklube/mechanic, the time without the vehicle, the time waiting for service, the return trip, and what your FREE TIME or hourly pay rate is worth, and add that cost/expense into your calculations. My ROI on a used Frantz was skipping the 1st OCI. That's pretty quick.
For someone driving 5k-10k a month, bypass is a no brainer. I don't drive that much anymore and do miss the national scenery.
The bypass filter investment is meaningless if you are not taking care of the rest of the car. Besides the mentioned plugs/sensors.... brakes need to be bled, coolant needs changing, thermostat and radiator caps need changing, transmission fluid needs changing, engine air filter needs changing, PSF if not electric steering, .... too many over-oiled vehicles neglected everywhere else, including car washes, waxes, undercarriage cleaning...
Take care of it whether you install the bypass or not.
Bypass filter can prevent sludge. It is an added sump, oil cooler, and moisture absorber... 3 out of 4 issues that most sludgers have inadequacies with. The 4th is the oil pump(pump size, pump flow, pump bypass, and oil psi). Not even worth addressing the pump's issues.
Oversized filter as an added sump was VAG way of dealing with 1.8T sludge. Ford also went the opposite, or confused way, going from small filter to big and back to small or whatever with the ecoboost 3.5... makes you wonder if cost/packaging trumped what an engineer wanted.
Plenty of older engines used smaller filters in passenger vehicles but a 1.5-2x sized filter when engine was put in a work application(truck). Whether bypass or full flow or sump size, additional filtration/fluid capacity is not even worth debating.
I've rebuilt sludged engines, cleaned sludged engines, used oversized filters, installed bypasses, and prevented sludge from ever occurring in known problem engines. Guess what, a bypass filter just works. There is no paper or study or test that can prove that wrong. Whether you benefit or not depends on your engine or your goals, and how much time you want to waste waiting in line for an oil change, or by doing it yourself.
I'd say that I can give you an essay of nonsense from my couch or I can just tell you from my experience...bypass filter will clean and prevent sludge. I have cleaned a sludged engine by installing a bypass, and topping off the oil as needed. The element would clog rapidly. It took almost 10 elements to clean out that engine, with each element lasting longer than the previous. Someone is under and over estimating the detergent/dispersant capability of an oil at the same time. Ever work on an engine? ever install a bypass? ever own a sludge monster? ever drive a single engine over 500k miles without a rebuild? I have!
Give you a little hint, UOA's are NOT even needed. Baseline is NOT even needed. Cost of UOA should not even be considered.
With a bypass filter, as long as the oil looks clean, it works. Replace the full flow as required by the filter or engine manufacturer. Replace the bypass when oil is dirty, usually when bypass flow is reduced or when bypass clogs...no specific mileage point for a bypass media quitting point. And, top off for consumption, if any, at each fillup.
I've worked on 300k engines, with bypass filters, that NEVER had a UOA, or a drain plug removal.... none with any mechanical issues, no oil consumption, perfect leak down and compression, great oil pressure, and no annoying noises. And, the argument that the vehicle to rust away, fall apart, or dissolve... if meaningless which seems to be an argument against any and all maintenance. There are vehicles from the 1950's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's still on the road. They don't dissolve away if someone keeps them up.
Raidin, both Wix and Fram show that your engine uses a cartridge filter. If true, then you WILL NOT BE ABLE TO USE A DUAL REMOTE BYPASS as seen in Zpinch's Honda's photo. Standalone only!
http://www.framcatalog.com/PartDetailWindow.aspx?b=F&pn=TG10358
http://wixfilters.com/Lookup/PartDetails.aspx?Part=57064
Economics are meaningless since time wasted is never mentioned. Trip to dealer or quicklube or mechanic, waiting in line, waiting for service, trip away from dealer.... my time is worth more than that service. As such, some of us don't want to service every OLM, 3750, 6 month, yearly, 5k, 7.5k.... And, a bypass that is easy to change in a few minutes which will allow me to work a few more hours every month or two. When calculating ROI, calculate the time to go to the dealer/quicklube/mechanic, the time without the vehicle, the time waiting for service, the return trip, and what your FREE TIME or hourly pay rate is worth, and add that cost/expense into your calculations. My ROI on a used Frantz was skipping the 1st OCI. That's pretty quick.
For someone driving 5k-10k a month, bypass is a no brainer. I don't drive that much anymore and do miss the national scenery.
The bypass filter investment is meaningless if you are not taking care of the rest of the car. Besides the mentioned plugs/sensors.... brakes need to be bled, coolant needs changing, thermostat and radiator caps need changing, transmission fluid needs changing, engine air filter needs changing, PSF if not electric steering, .... too many over-oiled vehicles neglected everywhere else, including car washes, waxes, undercarriage cleaning...
Take care of it whether you install the bypass or not.
Once again, thanks to all of you who keep posting your thoughts, ideas, and opinions. As someone who knows very little in these departments, I really appreciate the advice, and feel more and more comfortable with all of this information, along with the research I am doing.
Originally Posted By: linksep
I had a super long post typed and I just deleted the entire thing.
My Chrome browser switched webpages on me while my phone was asleep (screen off) and I lost a long post I was in the middle of writing, I completely understand!
I agree with you guys, doing 5k OCIs is a big waste of money, but I wanted to make sure my engine lasted as long as possible. I kept looking for a way to go beyond that without issues (like sludge), but didn't find anything until my mechanic told me about bypass filtration.
I understand dnewton3's point. It's always a good idea to cover yourself by testing, observing, and carefully going about an endeavor like this. Not to mention checking costs, something WobblyElvis brought to light.
I also, of course, can't help but like what I am hearing from some of you about the potential of doing this. Other than reducing cost, which is my number one concern, I would also want to make sure my engine lasts as long as possible. I understand that some say bypass filtration will not reduce engine wear, while other will disagree. I do remember reading that other than cold starts, most engine wear is caused by particles below 15 microns, which a standard FF filter won't catch. I'd like to believe that, but I'll leave that to the experts. It sounds to me that a BP filter is in my best interest in the long run.
As far as sludge goes, I couldn't find anything out about my specific engine being known for this. I'd also like to think that as long as sludge-cleaning solutions that actually work (including additives in oils that reduce it) exist, then I should be ok with long OCIs, as long as I keep an eye on things.
I still plan to do UOAs. I know there's additional costs involved, but it would be nice to see what's going at first. Once I feel I am seeing consistent behavior (since I will use the same products and my route and driving style rarely change), I will just stick to my regiment.
Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
Raidin, both Wix and Fram show that your engine uses a cartridge filter. If true, then you WILL NOT BE ABLE TO USE A DUAL REMOTE BYPASS as seen in Zpinch's Honda's photo. Standalone only!
http://www.framcatalog.com/PartDetailWindow.aspx?b=F&pn=TG10358
http://wixfilters.com/Lookup/PartDetails.aspx?Part=57064
...
The bypass filter investment is meaningless if you are not taking care of the rest of the car. Besides the mentioned plugs/sensors.... brakes need to be bled, coolant needs changing, thermostat and radiator caps need changing, transmission fluid needs changing, engine air filter needs changing, PSF if not electric steering, .... too many over-oiled vehicles neglected everywhere else, including car washes, waxes, undercarriage cleaning...
Take care of it whether you install the bypass or not.
Thanks for checking! I'm going to ask about this as I had planned to, but am really surprised regardless.
Also, I am very OCD about my possessions. I take very good care of my things. People comment about how clean my car is, and how it looks like it's straight out of the showroom. Right now, I follow the maintanence schedule set by Lexus. Everything that needs changing gets changed. Alignments at 30k miles, air filters when they get dirty, spark plugs and coolant when Lexus specifies (I'll definitely check on that O2 sensor with my mechanic, linksep, thank you), and I even change my transmission fluid even though Lexus/Toyota says not to (Priuschat.com members conducted research and tested the fluid and did see that change is needed), and it's cheap at every 60k miles. I even bought magnetic drain plugs for the engine and transmission, to minimize metal particles floating around.
Sidenote: I'm going to wait till I pass 80k miles before I do anything major because I am still under the powertrain warranty, just to be safe.
I wanted to ask one more thing. My mechanic is telling me that dexos oil is the best there is, lasts longer than anything else. Should I look into that, or should I stick with Amsoil's SS since it has the biggest additive package?
Thanks again to everyone!
Originally Posted By: linksep
I had a super long post typed and I just deleted the entire thing.
My Chrome browser switched webpages on me while my phone was asleep (screen off) and I lost a long post I was in the middle of writing, I completely understand!
I agree with you guys, doing 5k OCIs is a big waste of money, but I wanted to make sure my engine lasted as long as possible. I kept looking for a way to go beyond that without issues (like sludge), but didn't find anything until my mechanic told me about bypass filtration.
I understand dnewton3's point. It's always a good idea to cover yourself by testing, observing, and carefully going about an endeavor like this. Not to mention checking costs, something WobblyElvis brought to light.
I also, of course, can't help but like what I am hearing from some of you about the potential of doing this. Other than reducing cost, which is my number one concern, I would also want to make sure my engine lasts as long as possible. I understand that some say bypass filtration will not reduce engine wear, while other will disagree. I do remember reading that other than cold starts, most engine wear is caused by particles below 15 microns, which a standard FF filter won't catch. I'd like to believe that, but I'll leave that to the experts. It sounds to me that a BP filter is in my best interest in the long run.
As far as sludge goes, I couldn't find anything out about my specific engine being known for this. I'd also like to think that as long as sludge-cleaning solutions that actually work (including additives in oils that reduce it) exist, then I should be ok with long OCIs, as long as I keep an eye on things.
I still plan to do UOAs. I know there's additional costs involved, but it would be nice to see what's going at first. Once I feel I am seeing consistent behavior (since I will use the same products and my route and driving style rarely change), I will just stick to my regiment.
Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
Raidin, both Wix and Fram show that your engine uses a cartridge filter. If true, then you WILL NOT BE ABLE TO USE A DUAL REMOTE BYPASS as seen in Zpinch's Honda's photo. Standalone only!
http://www.framcatalog.com/PartDetailWindow.aspx?b=F&pn=TG10358
http://wixfilters.com/Lookup/PartDetails.aspx?Part=57064
...
The bypass filter investment is meaningless if you are not taking care of the rest of the car. Besides the mentioned plugs/sensors.... brakes need to be bled, coolant needs changing, thermostat and radiator caps need changing, transmission fluid needs changing, engine air filter needs changing, PSF if not electric steering, .... too many over-oiled vehicles neglected everywhere else, including car washes, waxes, undercarriage cleaning...
Take care of it whether you install the bypass or not.
Thanks for checking! I'm going to ask about this as I had planned to, but am really surprised regardless.
Also, I am very OCD about my possessions. I take very good care of my things. People comment about how clean my car is, and how it looks like it's straight out of the showroom. Right now, I follow the maintanence schedule set by Lexus. Everything that needs changing gets changed. Alignments at 30k miles, air filters when they get dirty, spark plugs and coolant when Lexus specifies (I'll definitely check on that O2 sensor with my mechanic, linksep, thank you), and I even change my transmission fluid even though Lexus/Toyota says not to (Priuschat.com members conducted research and tested the fluid and did see that change is needed), and it's cheap at every 60k miles. I even bought magnetic drain plugs for the engine and transmission, to minimize metal particles floating around.
Sidenote: I'm going to wait till I pass 80k miles before I do anything major because I am still under the powertrain warranty, just to be safe.
I wanted to ask one more thing. My mechanic is telling me that dexos oil is the best there is, lasts longer than anything else. Should I look into that, or should I stick with Amsoil's SS since it has the biggest additive package?
Thanks again to everyone!
Last edited:
- Status
