Rev matching on downshifts

[ARCOgraphite]

How do you get it into second when slowing to take a 90 deg corner with no stop sign? I cant imagine not rev matching or " blipping the throttle" to down shift. I don't think the trans would handle it. I have been driving MT for over a half century. I am In a slush box now. Fish outta water - but not a performance car.

Funny the young woman sales lady that sold us the '23 Crosstrek kept saying she was so impressed we drove a stick. I took it off the lot before I turned the helm over to my wife. Car drove good. Much better than most base Imprezas I checked out made by SIA. Here you pays a bit more and gets a LOT more. Sad, as many from my Scottish side were born in Lafayette.

 

[meep]

Some cars make that natural timing mentioned earlier hard for upshifts, like the newer civic has incredibly long throttle hang. It times the best for short-shifting in normal driving and it’s impossible to get the perfect shift, quickly, if coming off of 3000 rpm.

newer cars make it easier to downshift without rev matching. The 70s and 80s cars I knew would not let you into the lower gear easily without it, the synchros just wouldn’t let you in. A newer stick - wanna position it into first while still coasting down and 15 mph, no problem.

rev-matching (or overshooting) was critical for clutchless downshift, if that hairpin called for it.

my Lexus rev-matches the downshifts when in manual mode when over 30-40 mph.

most of the time I drive a pickup with a slushbox and there is only slush-matching

 

[chris719]

How do you get it into second when slowing to take a 90 deg corner with no stop sign? I cant imagine not rev matching or " blipping the throttle" to down shift. I don't think the trans would handle it. I have been driving MT for over a half century. I am In a slush box now. Fish outta water - but not a performance car.

Funny the young woman sales lady that sold us the '23 Crosstrek kept saying she was so impressed we drove a stick. I took it off the lot before I turned the helm over to my wife. Car drove good. Much better than most base Imprezas I checked out made by SIA. Here you pays a bit more and gets a LOT more. Sad, as many from my Scottish side were born in Lafayette.

I'm with you. If you don't rev match into at least 2nd under certain conditions I am not sure how you drive without either being a jerky mess or lugging the engine.

 

[chris719]

What is the effect of NOT rev matching on downshifts on synchros. I understand they will wear more quickly but wouldnt they last a considerable amount of time perhaps 100k miles. I honestly never heard of this when learning to drive a stick. Not sure if poor instruction or I just didnt pay attention.

The synchros don't care if you rev match or not. If you blip the throttle while the clutch is in, the transmission doesn't know. The synchros are relieved if you double clutch, though. Rev matching can possibly save some clutch wear though, since you can let the clutch out faster without shock.

 

[clinebarger]

I'm the best manual driver you ever seen

Highly doubt it, But I can appreciate confidence!!!

Get proficient with a 5 & 4......Or do a No Lift 1/4 mile with a Muncie 4 speed & not blow the trans all over the track, Then we can talk.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

Most experienced stick drivers rev match on a downshift without thought even if they've never heard the term before.

not so sure on that........unless you are talking about waiting for the rpms to shift, rev matching includes using the gas, just making that clear.

 

[skyactiv]

not so sure on that........unless you are talking about waiting for the rpms to shift, rev matching includes using the gas, just making that clear.

It's RPM, not rpms.

 

[Rmay635703]

The Subaru 360 has a non-sync 1st.

Your choice to downshift was to double clutch Pegging the redline to click into 1st

Or if you were moving slow enough try to double clutch + rev match and grind a pound.

If you weren’t in one of the scenarios you had to stop to get into first.
Medium speeds into first were near impossible, faster easiest, slow it could shift but always ground.

 

[mr_boring]

I was just sitting here checking out the threads when I saw this one. It got me to thinking "man, I wonder how many miles I have on stick shifts?" I am going to only list the ones that I drove for a long time, more than 4-5k miles. There have been 4-5 that I've driven from 3k to 5kish miles. I'm going to add 15k total to whatever I come up with.

Stick 1, 1983 S10. Did have to replace a clutch after owning it for about 6-9 months. It was 9 years old when I bought it, probably factory clutch. I Drove it in that configuration for 2 years, call it 25k miles. Ended up putting a V8 with an automatic into it. Made the rookie mistake of not beefing up the rear end. Tore it all to hell 1st time I really got on it. Traded it to the guy who built it for me.

Stick 2, Opel Manta GT. Owned for about a year, tore up the front end one night driving from a buddies house who lived maybe 4 blocks down from me. Got in it, hit about 30 mph, curbed it going around a 75% curve (I should NOT have been driving) and just destroyed that front end. Sold it for almost what I had in it to a guy who had been asking me about it for a while. 10k miles

Stick 3, 96 Chevy Cavalier. Had that car for 5 years and drove it like I was Jeff Gordon Petty. Drove it ALL over the US, from down near Houston to as far north as Indianapolis. From as far west as Amarillo to Myrtle Beach SC. From the AR/OK border to Charlotte NC probably 20 times. About 130k miles.

Stick 4, Ford Escort. Bought it to use as a work car after Katrina (my DD was an 85 TA that got about 12 MPG if I drove it EASY, and Katrina made gas stupid expensive) and I ended up driving it for about 3 years, and for more than just a work car. About 25k miles

Stick 5, Ford Escape. Son still drives it, he bought it from me after I was done with. Rare 4 cyl 5 spd 4wd. Great little vehicle in crappy weather, loved it on ice and in snow. 45k miles

Stick 6, F150. Phenomenal little truck. No power windows, no amenities, 4.2 with a 5 spd. Drove it off and on for close to 10 years, though never any real distances, only when I needed a truck. 50k miles

Stick 7, Mustang. Totaled out at 35k miles. I put 30k on it, my son - about 5k

So in the neighborhood of 300,000 miles. I've replaced 1 clutch.

My son is on his THIRD clutch in that Escape. He can't drive a stick worth a darn.

Driving habits matter IMO. I drove every vehicle without using the clutch for thousands of miles. It was a bad habit, but I loved timing it so that it was flawless.

Heel/toe is a gimmick technique on most streets with most normal traffic. I tried it out with the Mustang, it wasn't for me.

 

[dumkid]

Highly doubt it, But I can appreciate confidence!!!

Get proficient with a 5 & 4......Or do a No Lift 1/4 mile with a Muncie 4 speed & not blow the trans all over the track, Then we can talk.

I was joking lol, i can drive a manual passably well, I'm not that good at rev matching downshifts, and I don't know if I've ever downshifted to 2nd. I've never gone down a drag strip but I've watched plenty of other people do it

 

[Pew]

Smoother. A lot smoother. Eventually you get so smooth that you don't feel the clutch reengage at all and end up pressing down the clutch pedal because you thought you missed the gear.

In situations where you find your traction at it's limit, staying in a gear can help with traction. This is especially useful in the snow. Engine braking here helps too when the wheel brakes don't.

Once you master how to heel-toe, there's no more satisfaction in the world. At that point you have achieved peak manual driver.

Side note, the best smoothest manual driver I came across was a Uber driver in toronto that referred himself as a gypsy because he travels and lived all over the world. I seriously thought I was in a cvt car because I couldn't feel him shift his manual dodge nitro looking car.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

It's RPM, not rpms.

Oh, I stand corrected, like it makes any difference on the point. Thanks for that useful correction of a term that is meaningless to the discussion and in the context of synchronized transmissons, it would not be techincally RPM as an absolute, but rpms as a variable group of engines speeds required to down shift from gear to gear. Their is no RPM required to down shift specifically, their is a set of sprreds or rpms..............so in that case perhaps they should be RPMs. Again like it matters.

 

[TiGeo]

It's RPM, not rpms.

Oh, I stand corrected, like it makes any difference on the point. Thanks for that useful correction of a term that is meaningless to the discussion and in the context of synchronized transmissons, it would not be techincally RPM as an absolute, but rpms as a variable group of engines speeds required to down shift from gear to gear. Their is no RPM required to down shift specifically, their is a set of sprreds or rpms..............so in that case perhaps they should be RPMs. Again like it matters.

 

[TiGeo]

The only cars I hear rev matching the downshifts and grabbing EVERY lower gear when stopping at a streetlight, are the ones with 8" coffee can exhaust or neighbor hater pipes.

They need people to know they drive a stick basically. I had a kid tell me he likes letting it roll back when he takes off to "flex" on auto drivers. What a moron.

 

[TiGeo]

Smoother. A lot smoother. Eventually you get so smooth that you don't feel the clutch reengage at all and end up pressing down the clutch pedal because you thought you missed the gear.

In situations where you find your traction at it's limit, staying in a gear can help with traction. This is especially useful in the snow. Engine braking here helps too when the wheel brakes don't.

Once you master how to heel-toe, there's no more satisfaction in the world. At that point you have achieved peak manual driver.

Side note, the best smoothest manual driver I came across was a Uber driver in toronto that referred himself as a gypsy because he travels and lived all over the world. I seriously thought I was in a cvt car because I couldn't feel him shift his manual dodge nitro looking car.

Tough in many cars without modifying the gas pedal. No way you can do it in our Focus. Cool technique for race/track drivers. Many modern sports cars auto rev match so no need. I had a ride around with my instructor in his C7 at VIR in 2021...7spd...I ask about it and he laughed..."We don't do that anymore."

 

[IndyIan]

Tough in many cars without modifying the gas pedal. No way you can do it in our Focus. Cool technique for race/track drivers. Many modern sports cars auto rev match so no need. I had a ride around with my instructor in his C7 at VIR in 2021...7spd...I ask about it and he laughed..."We don't do that anymore."

Hmmm, I can't remember how I rev matched in a 2013 Focus I test drove years ago, but I did figure out a way. With my normal width shoes in my Focus I can just put the ball on my foot on the brake, and just roll my foot sideways a bit and get the gas pedal with the other side of my foot. Makes it easy on the street.
The true heel and toe technique shown in the video clip I posted works with almost any pedals though and is better if your brake pedals falls below the gas pedal under hard braking.

 

[TiGeo]

Hmmm, I can't remember how I rev matched in a 2013 Focus I test drove years ago, but I did figure out a way. With my normal width shoes in my Focus I can just put the ball on my foot on the brake, and just roll my foot sideways a bit and get the gas pedal with the other side of my foot. Makes it easy on the street.
The true heel and toe technique shown in the video clip I posted works with almost any pedals though and is better if your brake pedals falls below the gas pedal under hard braking.

I can't manipulate my foot to do it, neither can my son who drives it now. In the video the gas/brake are nearly at the same level vs. the Focus where the gas is way below it.

 

[willbur]

I think that has to do with synchronized transmissions like in a heavy duty big rig. You HAVE to match rpm to downshift or wait until rpms drop.

Never heard of it in a car.

Honda motorcycles have synced transmissions but can shift without throttle.

Rev matching on down shift was a well known/used procedure, esp on sports cars.- its also known as "heel and toe". I still do it and down shifts are a lot smoother

 

[weaponoffreedom]

Rev matching on down shift was a well known/used procedure, esp on sports cars.- its also known as "heel and toe". I still do it and down shifts are a lot smoother

yes, but it is not nessessary is my point, in a big rig, it is nessessary to properly shift

 

[Rmay635703]

Most modern cars have Rev hang

So you “may” get a blip if you rapidly depress the clutch as you let off the gas and shift and simulate a Rev match. If you didn’t do that the car would Rev to far and slowly float down making you have to wait take a nap, cook a lunch…

My Cobalt is that way, what sucked was to rev match the up shift you had to effectively let off the gas a second before clutching and shifting or you would burn up the tissue paper clutch from constantly dragging the engine down every upshift.

Doing up shifts correctly was slow because of the float