Redux: 0w-20 - Toyota vs Mobil1

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Originally Posted By: Hounds

FWIW, I agree with you that TM/Idemitsu's 0W-20 weight oil was specifically designed for Toyota's Prius

Wrong! Toyota 0W-20 is blended by XOM, not Idemitsu.

Originally Posted By: Hounds
and that it clearly is the ideal engine lubricant for that application -- i.e., use in a relatively low-rpm Sterling-cycle engine

Wrong again! The Prius engine is an Atkinson cycle engine.

Originally Posted By: Hounds
whether TM's 0W-20 has any special or additional benefits over M1's 0W-20 in a Otto-cycle engine operated primarily below the 50th parallel is really speculation which many years of UOAs have yet to substantiate.

Wrong yet again! Toyota's XOM blended 0W-20 has a MUCH higher VI and is clearly superior for cold/warm starts in WARMER climates because it is thinner at medium temperatures. Where XOM's M1 0W-20 has an advantage over Toyota's 0W-20 XOM blend is at very cold temperatures because it is thinner at sub-zero temperatures.
 
Originally Posted By: buster
You can't be the best at everything and in most cold start situations, you won't find a better oil than TGMO 0w20.

The new Idemitsu made Mazda GF-5 high moly 0W-20 with it's 221 VI appears to be latest real competitor to TGMO.
 
Originally Posted By: wag123
Toyota 0W-20 is blended by XOM, not Idemitsu.

Actually, whether it's TM's 0W-20 or Idemitsu's sold by TM depends on the part number. We were discussing the latter.

Originally Posted By: wag123
The Prius engine is an Atkinson cycle engine [not a Sterling-cycle engine].
Yep, sure is. Typing without thinking on my part.

Originally Posted By: Hounds
. . whether TM's 0W-20 has any special or additional benefits over M1's 0W-20 in a Otto-cycle engine operated primarily below the 50th parallel is really speculation which many years of UOAs have yet to substantiate.


Originally Posted By: wag123
Wrong yet again! Toyota's XOM blended 0W-20 has a MUCH higher VI and is clearly superior for cold/warm starts in WARMER climates because it is thinner at medium temperatures. Where XOM's M1 0W-20 has an advantage over Toyota's 0W-20 XOM blend is at very cold temperatures because it is thinner at sub-zero temperatures.

"Clearly superior"? How so? Engines start faster, do they? There's a certain lilt you can detect from the starter? Pray tell, my angry friend, what objective benefits can one expect will come as a consequence of using "Toyota's XOM 'blended' [sic] 0W-20" with its "MUCH higher VI" over M1's 0W-20?

Originally Posted By: pbm
I think both of these are great oils . . . . Either will get your engine to 300K IMO.

I agree
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: HARTZSKY
With the moly content wiped out on the new sn version, Toyotas oil lost its appeal to me.


Um, it's a different moly and quite possibly a better form of it.
 
Originally Posted By: buster
Originally Posted By: HARTZSKY
With the moly content wiped out on the new sn version, Toyotas oil lost its appeal to me.


Um, it's a different moly and quite possibly a better form of it.

I would love to have a definitive answer on that.
Is Mobil using the tri-nuclear type in the TGMO SN formulation and can it be used in lower concentrations to other organic moly that others use?
And if lower concentrations are as effective as other types wouldn't the 1,600 ppm that Mobil uses in it's race oils be overkill?

With the new Mazda 0W-20 having almost 700 ppm of moly vs just over 100 ppm for the SN Toyota oil I'm inclined give the edge to the Mazda oil in that regard.

Anyway, it's certainly nice to have another cost effective ultra high VI 0W-20 alternative the great TGMO.
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: buster
Mobil 1 0w20 is a better oil than Toyota 0w20.

How is it better?

I'm surprised Buster would claim this.

The Toyota 0W-20 was specifically designed for the Prius and is clearly the ideal engine lubricant. M1 AFE 0W-20 is quite an old formulation now, and while a quality oil, it's much lower 173 VI and lower levels of AW additives makes it no longer a first choice oil.


It can't be too old as it's formulation just changed with the SN changes. Also M1 makes Toyo 0-20 and I would find it hard to believe M1 will let their oil slide while making a better product for someone else.


What? Why wouldn't they.
Toyota:hey exxon,we want an oil formulated with x amount of moly,x amount of boron etc.
Exxon: ok

Exxon would formulate to their toyota's spec,regardless of what they themselves and formulate and put on the shelves. Exxon is in business to make money. They have proven that they are happy to use cheaper materials if it nets them close to the same result,so why exactly would they care if Toyota wants a better formulated oil for their particular engines. Exxon is getting paid to supply a lubricant that meets toyota's spec,regardless what it costs them to make it's what Toyota specifies and is paying for.Exxon formulates mobil to make a profit,while meeting a variety of manufacturers specifications. Just because it meets a spec doesn't mean it's ideal.
 
I don't know which is better but I gotta go with Clevy on this one buster. Sorry. If Toyota is willing to pay for a formulation what XOM wants for it, I don't see XOM saying no. Don't forget, the large part of the population doesn't know it's made by XOM, just people like us! I doubt that XOM is worried about the percentage of sales it is going to loose to TGMO because really, they are still getting paid.
 
Originally Posted By: cp3
I don't know which is better but I gotta go with Clevy on this one buster. Sorry. If Toyota is willing to pay for a formulation what XOM wants for it, I don't see XOM saying no. Don't forget, the large part of the population doesn't know it's made by XOM, just people like us! I doubt that XOM is worried about the percentage of sales it is going to loose to TGMO because really, they are still getting paid.


Agreed, completely. Mobil is in the oil business, Toyota is in the car business. Mobil's goal is to maximize profits on their oils; not saying that's a bad thing, that's just reality. There's zero reason to believe they wouldn't make a more expensive lubricant for an OEM willing to pay for it, and given Toyota's distribution channel for motor oil, I highly doubt they view it as "competition". How many non-Toyota owners are actually going to search out Toyota's 0W20? And as you said, they're still selling oil, just at a lower margin.

I just don't seen any basis for Buster's claim.
 
Nah, you're over thinking it.

Mobil 1 is XOM's flagship product, and they take it pretty seriously.

You have to understand that not all oils are the best at everything. You're comparing apples and oranges. I don't know why that is such a hard concept to understand.

In absolute fuel economy testing, the TGMO would most likely beat Mobil 1. In the SEQ IIIG, I bet Mobil 1 would beat TGMO.

As far as the moly goes, again, you're talking about different base oils and versions of these additives. It doesn't matter if one oil has 800ppm or 75 ppm. 75 ppm might work better with xyz base oils being used. I don't pretend I know more than the chemists that formulate these oils.

It was confirmed by MadMaxx who worked for XOM years ago that both TGMO and M1 used Infineum's tri nuclear moly and not whatever Japan was using.

*Most of the best oils on the market are using about the same amount of moly - PU, Synpower, Pennzoil, PP, M1, Amsoil....

Only Redline and a few other Japanese oils use well over 600 ppm.


And if you look at PU's results in the SEQ IIIG, it's pretty clear that the top tier Pennzoil/Mobil/Amsoil/Vavoline oils are as good as they get. The rest is marketing.

IVA/SeqIII/HTO-06 and ACEA specs trump Toyota's demands. All of the above brands do exceptionally well in those tests.
 
Quote:
I just don't seen any basis for Buster's claim.


I don't see any basis for your claim.
 
The TGMO is most likely all Group III, while the Mobil 1 0w20 is 50% PAO and other base oils.
 
Originally Posted By: buster
Quote:
I just don't seen any basis for Buster's claim.


I don't see any basis for your claim.


Well, the Toyota 0W20 has a significantly higher VI than Mobil's oil, which is generally indicative of more expensive VII's and/or higher quality base stocks. Your claim is based on "Mobil wouldn't do that". But whatever..
 
Originally Posted By: buster
The TGMO is most likely all Group III, while the Mobil 1 0w20 is 50% PAO and other base oils.


So based on this, Amsoil is better than M1 because it's 100% PAO. . . .? I thought it was about the Add pack as well.
 
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: buster
Quote:
I just don't seen any basis for Buster's claim.


I don't see any basis for your claim.


Well, the Toyota 0W20 has a significantly higher VI than Mobil's oil, which is generally indicative of more expensive VII's and/or higher quality base stocks. Your claim is based on "Mobil wouldn't do that". But whatever..


So what? It's using more VII's. That's not always a good thing. Run TGMO in a turbo or racing engine.

Why do you think Redline uses little/no VII's?
 
Originally Posted By: asharris7
Originally Posted By: buster
The TGMO is most likely all Group III, while the Mobil 1 0w20 is 50% PAO and other base oils.


So based on this, Amsoil is better than M1 because it's 100% PAO. . . .? I thought it was about the Add pack as well.


It is, my point is Mobil 1 is using the more expensive base oils for the better low/high temperature performance. If you don't need that, then TGMO may be your better choice.
 
Originally Posted By: buster
AFAIK, XOM knows more about oil than Toyota.


True, but do they know more than Idemitsu?
wink.gif
 
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