Redux: 0w-20 - Toyota vs Mobil1

[Indydriver]

Originally Posted By: Rand
so how would you rate the honda full syn 0w20 vs toyota 0w20 vs subaru 0w20?

or just get the cheapest one?

I can get the toyota for 5.90, subaru for 7.xx and havent priced the honda.

For those prices, it's easy, buy TGMO. I haven't run it yet but Caterham has singlehandedly put three cases in my garage. I am currently using up my stash of HGFS by COP. It is a good oil and has held up well in the harsh Honda VCM V6. You can find my UOA in that section (note-it has a stronger add pack than Honda's FF). I haven't really followed the Subbie oil but if it is ILA like Mazda's then it will be good.

 

[Indydriver]

Originally Posted By: buster
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: buster
From a pure fuel efficiency stand point, I think the TGMO is better, but in overall performance, Mobil 1 AFE is better.

If you were to subject these two oils in extreme testing - Seq IIIG, TEOST, IVA, MRV and oxidation stability, most likely the Mobil 1 product would be superior.


Again, how do you know that?


I don't know that for certain, I'm simply basing it on my opinion. It is just an opinion. Two key reasons. 1. Mobil 1, despite the trash talking, is always up to date in using the latest and greatest additives/base oils. 2. It's their flagship product.

If anything, the qualities of TGMO are on par with Mobil Super 0w20, not Mobil 1. At the ver most Mobil 1, and not EP/AFE.

UOA's are limted and a high VI doesn't tell you the entire story. Just common sense.

You are entitled to your opinion. But the many threads, VOAs and UOAs on TGMO have convinced me. And remember that the SN TGMO is made by XOM. Here's no reason XOM wouldn't make them a superior private label, all you have to do is pay for it. Your comment above seems to indicate that you believe EP and AFE are of the same quality. I just showed you why it isn't.

 

[buster]

Quote:
Your comment above seems to indicate that you believe EP and AFE are of the same quality. I just showed you why it isn't.


Not true. If you look at the High Temp. performance of AFE vs EP, it's the same. It's also why they show you the MRV figures. It's using slightly better base oils.

EP may have a longer drain additive system, but no one could tell you that but XOM.

UOA's don't tell you everything. They don't tell you about the type of wear, and they don't tell you about how clean the engine is. Very limited tool.

Mobil's Super 0w20 is on par with most other competitor 0w20's. In fact they use the Na/Ti additive system in these oils.

Castrol's Edge I would say is up there with Mobil 1 and both seem to be using identical additive systems -Mg/low Ca.

Mobil 1 EP is also the only certified API ILSAC GF-5/SN approved extended drain oil. Also meests dexos 1. (EP 5w30). Low SAP oil was well.

 

[buster]

You can see what Amsoil did...avoided the high cost new technology and boosted the older high calcium, high SA, formulations. It's all marketing....

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: buster
Mobil 1 0w20 is a better oil than Toyota 0w20.

How is it better?

I'm surprised Buster would claim this.

The Toyota 0W-20 was specifically designed for the Prius and is clearly the ideal engine lubricant. M1 AFE 0W-20 is quite an old formulation now, and while a quality oil, it's much lower 173 VI and lower levels of AW additives makes it no longer a first choice oil.


It can't be too old as it's formulation just changed with the SN changes. Also M1 makes Toyo 0-20 and I would find it hard to believe M1 will let their oil slide while making a better product for someone else.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Indydriver
XOM reduces AW in its AFE oils, presumably for fuel efficiency:

M1 Grade/Phos/Zinc (specs)

0W-40/1000/1100
5W-20/800/900
5W-30/800/900
0W-20/650/750
0W-30/650/750

I don't have TGMO in front of me but Honda Genuine Full Syn after 6400 miles of use is:

0W-20/739/873

So, for protection, M1 AFEs are clearly not the most fortified oils on the market.


Your quessing ZDDP is the only factor in wear protection. Not these days. Remember M1 0-20 has a MRV @ 9200 indicating a very high quality base stock.

 

[Indydriver]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
XOM reduces AW in its AFE oils, presumably for fuel efficiency:

M1 Grade/Phos/Zinc (specs)

0W-40/1000/1100
5W-20/800/900
5W-30/800/900
0W-20/650/750
0W-30/650/750

I don't have TGMO in front of me but Honda Genuine Full Syn after 6400 miles of use is:

0W-20/739/873

So, for protection, M1 AFEs are clearly not the most fortified oils on the market.


Your quessing ZDDP is the only factor in wear protection. Not these days. Remember M1 0-20 has a MRV @ 9200 indicating a very high quality base stock.

I have not questioned the quality of the AFE base stock. Do you have evidence it is of better quality than the base stock used for M1 5W-30? How does the MRV of 5W-30 compare to that of the 0W-20? I'm not guessing about anything. I'm feeding you manufacturer's data, not opinions.

 

[buster]

The fact that the MRV is only given on the AFE line and they give it the same High Temp rating as EP says "something".

As far as overall quality ratings:

1. EP
2. AFE
3. Reg. M1
4. Mobil Super

 

[buster]

How many people would have thought regular Mobil 1 5w30 SM trounced the others in the HTO-06 Honda Turbo test? I wouldn't have. Fe was higher on average, but it shows you that $30 UOA's are limited in determining oil quality.

 

[Pwr Stroke]

I've used both SN version of these oils in my wifes '11 Ford Edge with the 3.5 engine. This engine suffers from oil starving in the front side valve train and the result is a light tapping noise in the mechanical buckets when started cold for ~3-4 minutes when running any 5W20 synthetic oil. As a result a experimented with Castrol Edge (SM) 0W20 and Mobil (SN) 0W20 with the same results of cold start tapping for ~ 2 minutes which is an improvement over the 5W20. Last I tested the Toyota (SN) 0W20 and the engine litterly doesn't make any tapping noise at cold start up which proves this oil flows much faster at cold temps.

Also the oils tested above all yield the same fuel economy so there's no advantage there in this engine.

 

[buster]

You can't be the best at everything and in most cold start situations, you won't find a better oil than TGMO 0w20.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Pwr Stroke
I've used both SN version of these oils in my wifes '11 Ford Edge with the 3.5 engine. This engine suffers from oil starving in the front side valve train and the result is a light tapping noise in the mechanical buckets when started cold for ~3-4 minutes when running any 5W20 synthetic oil. As a result a experimented with Castrol Edge (SM) 0W20 and Mobil (SN) 0W20 with the same results of cold start tapping for ~ 2 minutes which is an improvement over the 5W20. Last I tested the Toyota (SN) 0W20 and the engine litterly doesn't make any tapping noise at cold start up which proves this oil flows much faster at cold temps.

Also the oils tested above all yield the same fuel economy so there's no advantage there in this engine.


Of course your engine will never see temps in the -20F range, but I believe M1 0-20 actually flows faster than Toyo at these coldest temps. I believe Catherham mentioned this.

 

[KlooksKleek]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Pwr Stroke
I've used both SN version of these oils in my wifes '11 Ford Edge with the 3.5 engine. This engine suffers from oil starving in the front side valve train and the result is a light tapping noise in the mechanical buckets when started cold for ~3-4 minutes when running any 5W20 synthetic oil. As a result a experimented with Castrol Edge (SM) 0W20 and Mobil (SN) 0W20 with the same results of cold start tapping for ~ 2 minutes which is an improvement over the 5W20. Last I tested the Toyota (SN) 0W20 and the engine litterly doesn't make any tapping noise at cold start up which proves this oil flows much faster at cold temps.

Also the oils tested above all yield the same fuel economy so there's no advantage there in this engine.


Of course your engine will never see temps in the -20F range, but I believe M1 0-20 actually flows faster than Toyo at these coldest temps. I believe Catherham mentioned this.


I beliee I read that, too. Toyota is the lighter oil for temps down to about 0F and M1 0-20 AFE pulls ahead when temps are lower than 0F.

 

[The Critic]

santov, congrats and welcome to the Prius family.

Depending on the outcome of this debate, I may sell my two unopened cases of Toyota 0w-20 and use M1 instead. Since you're a local, you get first dibs.

Regardless, I am at 46k now and plan to continue letting my dealer do the changes until the 60k mark. Or maybe even until 100k in case of any future leaks/engine issues, as documented changes by the dealer will ease any concerns about improper maint and may help a goodwill case.

In our climate, I really doubt that the cold flow properties of Toyota 0w20 will make a significant difference. I've noticed that my oil level is starting to drop a little (1/4 qt) on my current drain, which is the first time that it has ever happened.

For the other vital fluids, I have been doing the transmission every 30k. I had it done once by Luscious Garage at 15k, and again at 30k by a dealer. I plan to continue this every 30k from now on. For the brake fluid, I flush it every 30k on average - do note that Techstream is required for this. For coolant, I had a dealer do the drain/refill on the engine loop at 30k, and I plan to do the inverter coolant myself soon at 50k.

Lastly, Luscious Garage in SF is a great shop for all things hybrid, and is arguably the best in the nation. I do have the Techstream Lite scan tool, which IMO, is a must for this car if you plan to keep it for the long-term. For instance, I just did a brake fluid flush last weekend (again) which required Techstream - so the only cost to me was the fluid, and not the $110-$140 that the dealer wants.

 

[santov]

Thanks for all the feedback. I as much as I want to use M1,I'm not convinced that it matches Toyota /Idemm in additives.

However since I'm planning short OCI of 5k, think I can justify using M1? Being in California I'm not worried about extreme cold.

Went to the local Toyota dealer and this stuff was $8.85 a quart! That alone makes me want to use M1.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: santov
Thanks for all the feedback. I as much as I want to use M1,I'm not convinced that it matches Toyota /Idemm in additives.

However since I'm planning short OCI of 5k, think I can justify using M1? Being in California I'm not worried about extreme cold.

Went to the local Toyota dealer and this stuff was $8.85 a quart! That alone makes me want to use M1.

Wholesale price on the stuff is $5.40/qt I think.

I paid $5/qt last year, so I have 2 cases of it on hand.

 

[santov]

Thanks for the warm welcome Critic. I'll PM you for Toyota oil details.

I'm planning on doing the oil change myself at 1k, 5k, dealer at 10k, then alternating me /dealer until maintenance is up.

I have to read more on Tech stream. It's silly I need a computer to flush my brakes. I do that every year, and iI hate mushy pedals.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: santov


I have to read more on Tech stream. It's silly I need a computer to flush my brakes. I do that every year, and iI hate mushy pedals.


It is actually brake-by-wire, but it acts, feels, and responds like an normal brake pedal to me. In other words, if you screw up the brake flush, you'll know right away.

 

[buster]

Quote:
as much as I want to use M1,I'm not convinced that it matches Toyota /Idemm in additives.



??? TGMO is made by XOM.

 

[pbm]

I think both of these are great oils but I would use Mobil 1 based on price and availability. Either will get your engine to 300K IMO.

The original Mobil 1 0w20 SL version was very highly thought of on this site. Has the formula been 'watered down' with subsequent versions (SM,SN)?