Redux: 0w-20 - Toyota vs Mobil1

Status
Not open for further replies.
I think maybe you are not giving enough consideration to the business side of this buster. Your take is M1 is better, period. It could well be. But to think XOM wouldn't make something for someone to protect M1....I don't know. I'm pretty sure XOM's "flagship" is $!

Who said Toyota knows more? Maybe XOM came up with the formulation and peddled it to Toyota.
 
Originally Posted By: asharris7
Originally Posted By: buster
AFAIK, XOM knows more about oil than Toyota.


True, but do they know more than Idemitsu?
wink.gif



lol.gif
 
You have to match the oil with the right application.

In most situations, I'd give the TGMO the advantage due to it's high VI, but in a more severe service application that may require an oil to resist high temperatures very well, such a turbo or racing situation, I'd definitely use the Mobil 1 0w20.
 
Originally Posted By: buster
Mobil 1 is XOM's flagship product, and they take it pretty seriously.

I agree.

Mobil 1 is well regarded around the world. There is some problem with M1 in Europe it is price, M1 is much more expensive than most other brands. In US, M1 is barely 50 cents to $1 more than others. Even it is a little more money, it's the best selling synthetic in USA.

XOM likes to keep it that way, one way to do it is keep the M1 quality above the rest.
 
Originally Posted By: asharris7
Originally Posted By: buster
The TGMO is most likely all Group III, while the Mobil 1 0w20 is 50% PAO and other base oils.


So based on this, Amsoil is better than M1 because it's 100% PAO. . . .? I thought it was about the Add pack as well.


No Amsoil oil is 100% PAO.
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: asharris7
Originally Posted By: buster
The TGMO is most likely all Group III, while the Mobil 1 0w20 is 50% PAO and other base oils.


So based on this, Amsoil is better than M1 because it's 100% PAO. . . .? I thought it was about the Add pack as well.


No Amsoil oil is 100% PAO.


I know, that's what I said. More of a question for him regarding the superiority of oils soley based on base stock.
 
Originally Posted By: cp3
Caterham, have you seen this paper?
http://www.infineum.com/Documents/Crankc...logy%202009.pdf
Any news on us getting the new Mazda up here?

Yes I'm aware of that Infineum paper and it discusses what they have developed. It's not a discussion or comparison to other moly producers like Adeka-Sakura Lube of Japan that Nippon Oil and Idemitsu use.

I don't think Mazda Canada will be getting the new Idemitsu oil since they're using Petro-Canada's 0W-20.
The logical choice will be Honda/Acura Canada and Mitsubishi who are already using the Idemitsu GF-4 high moly, 197 VI 0W-20 oil.
They're over due for upgrading to GF-5 and the Idemitsu GF-5 supplied Mazda USA oil is the obvious choice; I'm sure Mazda doesn't have exclusive rights to it. They have resisted moving to the Idemitsu made, zero moly, 169 VI, GF-5 oil that Subaru have been using for over a year now.
I have a tech' friend who works for Acura and I check periodically to see what they're using. As of two weeks ago it's still GF-4. If I hear of anything I'll be sure to let everyone know.
 
Originally Posted By: buster

In most situations, I'd give the TGMO the advantage due to it's high VI, but in a more severe service application that may require an oil to resist high temperatures very well, such a turbo or racing situation, I'd definitely use the Mobil 1 0w20.

I wouldn't.
Yes M1 0W-20 is a heavier oil and therefore can withstand slightly higher oil temp's, but only slightly. No 2.6cP or 2.7cP HTHSV oil is intended for high temp' applications, they're simply too light.
I've used the TGMO in my track car and I did have to thicken it up a bit to maintain high temperature oil pressure. Didn't have to do so with the Idemitsu GF-4 199 VI 0W-20 which is heavier in part to it's lower VI than the TMGO. I'm certain I wouldn't need to thicken up the even heavier M1 0W-20.
The Sustina 0W-20 (229 VI) is even lighter that the TGMO at operating temp's and I've had to add some Sustina 0W-50 to maintain hot oil pressure.

That's just the nature of the beast. The higher the VI of an oil for a given HTHSV the lighter it will be at all temp's; most noticeably on start-up but also at normal hot operating temp's although to a much lesser extent.
 
Originally Posted By: buster
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: buster
Quote:
I just don't seen any basis for Buster's claim.


I don't see any basis for your claim.


Well, the Toyota 0W20 has a significantly higher VI than Mobil's oil, which is generally indicative of more expensive VII's and/or higher quality base stocks. Your claim is based on "Mobil wouldn't do that". But whatever..


So what? It's using more VII's. That's not always a good thing. Run TGMO in a turbo or racing engine.

Why do you think Redline uses little/no VII's?

TGMO and the other ultra high VI oils are not necessarily using more VIIs than M1 0W-20. They are using a completely different type of polymer thickener called polymethacrylates (PMA). These star like "Asteric" and multi-branched polymers have a very high VI, are very shear stable and are the sole reason for the 200+ VI Japanese 0W-20 oils. These new type of patented polymers only hit the market as recently as 2008. They are considerably more expensive than the olefin copolymers (OCP) that are most commonly used.

M1 AFE 0W-20 uses high quality base oils but not the latest in polymer technology. It's an older formulation that's been around since about 2004 or even earlier. It was formulated to perform exceptionally well at extremely cold temp's and remains unsurpassed in that regard. Back in 2006 or so it was withdrawn along with it's 0W-30 stablemate since it wasn't selling. A couple of years later it was reintroduced with a new marketing scheme rebranding them as Advanced Fuel Economy (AFE) oils and it worked! But the formulation has remained largely unchanged although the MRV and CCS spec's are not as good as they were originally.
 
TGMO is using a different detergent system, while Mobil 1 is using the latest low SAP system.

Comparing these two oils is interesting, but it's really a guess as to which is better. I lean towards Mobil 1 being it's Mobil's flagship product. If the TGMO was as state of the art as you said, the price would be significantly higher.
 
TGMO is a paradox. It is very inexpensive for dealerships and yet uses very expensive moly. For sure, to keep costs down, it is primarily if not exclusively Group III. In regards to its extremely high viscocity index, I recall Caterham stating that he had never ever seen an oil shear so quickly. Of course, this is typical of oils with high VI. The dealerships here sale it for over $7 a quart, even if I buy a case, even though they pay around $4. As far as Caterham's repeated claim that Mobil AFE is an old formulation, it is wrong.
 
Originally Posted By: buster
TGMO is using a different detergent system, while Mobil 1 is using the latest low SAP system.

Comparing these two oils is interesting, but it's really a guess as to which is better. I lean towards Mobil 1 being it's Mobil's flagship product. If the TGMO was as state of the art as you said, the price would be significantly higher.

Of course I've never said TGMO is better, my point is that they are entirely different oils. TGMO is using a more advanced type of VM which MI can't use without going with lighter base oils which would mean changing the formulation.

What the net cost to produce is of both oils is hard to say, but the final retail price won't tell you much.
 
I agree. That's how I see it. I would say in most cases that call for a 0w20, the TGMO is tough to beat. The high VI is a plus overall.
 
[/quote]


Anyway, it's certainly nice to have another cost effective ultra high VI 0W-20 alternative the great TGMO. [/quote]

'Cost effective' is a moving target. I pay $8.75 a Qt. for the Mazda 0-20 at the dealership. I know that's low for the peoples' republic of Canada, but it's high for here. The Toyota 0-20 is substantially lower, at least where I reside.
 
Originally Posted By: JDD
[/quote]


Anyway, it's certainly nice to have another cost effective ultra high VI 0W-20 alternative the great TGMO.


'Cost effective' is a moving target. I pay $8.75 a Qt. for the Mazda 0-20 at the dealership. I know that's low for the peoples' republic of Canada, but it's high for here. The Toyota 0-20 is substantially lower, at least where I reside. [/quote]

I pay the same for both $7. (both TGMO and Mazda)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

S
Mobil1 EP 0W-20 vs Total Quartz 9000 XTRA Future FGC
Replies
8
Views
606
kschachn
H
Oil Info Overload 0W-20
2 3 4
Replies
79
Views
5K
wlk
R
Motul 8100 0w-20: Eco-Lite vs Eco-Clean (or anything else)? For Citroen C1 (Toyota Aygo)
Replies
11
Views
937
vinu_neuro
Hillbilly Deluxe
Moving from 0W-20 to 5W-30 in late model Toyotas
3 4 5
Replies
86
Views
14K
ARCOgraphite
UpNorthSooner
Gifted some Pennzoil Platinum High Mileage 0w-20. Ok to mix with my non high mileage oil?
Replies
18
Views
1K
Sequoiasoon
Back
Top