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Originally Posted By: SIXSPEED
Been considering RL 5W40 or 10W40 for my Ford GT500 5.4L motor rather than the thicker 5W50. Is there any issue with running RL 5W40, with its CI-4/CJ-4 classifications in a gasoline motor? What differences in the additives package are there in the 5W40 oil? I would expect the 5W40 TBN to be higher than the 10W40 oil.

Questions corrected in above post.
 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
If a car actually came with a 50 weight,especially a beast like that,I`d stick with it.

Yeah, but the Motorcraft 5W50 oil shears to a 40 grade in less than 1400 miles ... to the same KV as the RL 5W40 (15.1 cSt).
 
Originally Posted By: SIXSPEED
Been considering RL 5W40 or 10W40 for my Ford GT500 5.4L motor rather than the thicker 5W50. Is there any issue with running RL 5W40, with its CI-4/CJ-4 classifications in a gasoline motor? What differences in the additives package are there in the 5W50 oil? I would expect the 5W50 TBN to be higher than the 10W40 oil.

From talking to Dave at Red Line, he likes to recommend RL 5w30 in most applications calling for 5w40 since RL's HTHS's are higher than their competitors identical grade oils.
 
Originally Posted By: SIXSPEED
Yeah, but the Motorcraft 5W50 oil shears to a 40 grade in less than 1400 miles ... to the same KV as the RL 5W40 (15.1 cSt).

Based on what? I'm sure some cars shear it that far in that many miles, but is that the norm?

Also, do you know what the cause of the shearing is? It's likely to affect the 5w-40, too. If it's fuel dilution, you'll have a hard time finding an oil that doesn't shear....
 
So redline says that there 10/40 runs as thick as grade 3 20/50 Oil. So is this oil really thicker than Mobil 15/50. As many know I have a Built Cosworth engine that requires some thick oil for the bearings was wondering if this was the correct Redline oil to go with.

Thanks John
 
Originally Posted By: asu
So redline says that there 10/40 runs as thick as grade 3 20/50 Oil. So is this oil really thicker than Mobil 15/50. As many know I have a Built Cosworth engine that requires some thick oil for the bearings was wondering if this was the correct Redline oil to go with.

Thanks John

Here's the exact quote: "Thicker oil film at operating temperature than a petroleum 20W50."

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=5&pcid=21

The comparison is to a conventional oil, not a group (not "grade") III oil.

Red Line says their 10w-40 generates thicker films. It may also have a higher HTHS viscosity. However, it still has a lower kinematic viscosity. This says very good things about their formulation, although it may or may not be useful for your application.
 
Originally Posted By: SIXSPEED
Is there any issue with running RL 5W40, with its CI-4/CJ-4 classifications in a gasoline motor?


There are many using RL 5W-40 is gasoline engines with excellent results. It wouldn't hurt to call Dave at RL to get his opinion.

Quote:
What differences in the additives package are there in the 5W50 oil? I would expect the 5W50 TBN to be higher than the 10W40 oil.


I believe the 5W-50 and 10W-40 have their standard gasoline additive package, which basically means it has the typical RL 950 ppm dose of moly. The 15W-50 and 5W-40 don't contain moly, but I'm not sure if they are using some sort of ashless or organic AW additive to offset it.
21.gif
I believe the CJ-4 oils also have a slightly higher TBN, something over 9 versus 8-8.5 for their gasoline oils.

Give Dave a call.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: SIXSPEED
Yeah, but the Motorcraft 5W50 oil shears to a 40 grade in less than 1400 miles ... to the same KV as the RL 5W40 (15.1 cSt).

Based on what? I'm sure some cars shear it that far in that many miles, but is that the norm?


A wide spread group III oil like Motorcraft 5W-50? It's more than likely going to shear, it's got to be loaded with VIIs.

Quote:
It's likely to affect the 5w-40, too. If it's fuel dilution, you'll have a hard time finding an oil that doesn't shear....


RL 5W-40 doesn't really shear even in engines that are known shearers. I highly doubt that 5.4 will shear RL 5W-40 at all.
 
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
A wide spread group III oil like Motorcraft 5W-50? It's more than likely going to shear, it's got to be loaded with VIIs.

How do you know it's group III?

Some group III+ base stocks have very high viscosity indices.

Not all VIIs shear so easily.


Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
RL 5W-40 doesn't really shear even in engines that are known shearers. I highly doubt that 5.4 will shear RL 5W-40 at all.

I accept your rebuke of my use of the term "likely."

Still, without knowing the cause of the viscosity loss, it's a bit of a gamble to step down to a 5w-40 just because its totally virgin starting viscosity is in the neighborhood of used-and-sheared spec oil, no?
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
A wide spread group III oil like Motorcraft 5W-50? It's more than likely going to shear, it's got to be loaded with VIIs.

How do you know it's group III?

Some group III+ base stocks have very high viscosity indices.

Not all VIIs shear so easily.


This a 5W-50 we are talking about, even the best POE and PAO base stocks are going to require VIIs to get there. RL manages to blend a 5W-30 without any VIIs, I'm willing to bet their 5W-50 uses them though.

I don't know it's a Group III, though I strongly suspect it given that it is a CP supplied product like the rest of the MC line.

Quote:

I accept your rebuke of my use of the term "likely."

Still, without knowing the cause of the viscosity loss, it's a bit of a gamble to step down to a 5w-40 just because its totally virgin starting viscosity is in the neighborhood of used-and-sheared spec oil, no?


I believe SIXSPEED is operating under the assumption that the 5W-50 will shear in use, which is a fairly safe assumption, IMO. AFAIK, he doesn't have any established issues with his car, he's just looking to find the RL viscosity that is best suited to his car given their characteristic high HTHS viscosity for the given grade.
 
Originally Posted By: SIXSPEED
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
If a car actually came with a 50 weight,especially a beast like that,I`d stick with it.

Yeah, but the Motorcraft 5W50 oil shears to a 40 grade in less than 1400 miles ... to the same KV as the RL 5W40 (15.1 cSt).


Since it's the factory spec' oil, the shear is nothing to be worried about. It's not like the Ford engineers aren't intimately aware of the oil's characteristics.
Having said, since the Motorcraft 5W-50 doesn't have a high HTHS vis to start with, after shearing it's HTHS vis value is likely no higher than RL's 5W-30 which does not shear. That's the RL grade I would suggest or perhaps their somewhat heavier 0W-40.
And when comparing oils, forget about the KV100 spec' and look to the HTHS vis' for a true indicator how thick or thin an oil is.

Also keep in mind, since your car is equipped with an oil pressure gauge (I hope it is a fully functional gauge), any deviation from the factory spec' oil should be done only after becoming very familiar with the oil pressure characteristics of your engine; i.e., what are the minimum OP spec's and what is the oil pump's bypass OP level set at.
 
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
This a 5W-50 we are talking about, even the best POE and PAO base stocks are going to require VIIs to get there. RL manages to blend a 5W-30 without any VIIs, I'm willing to bet their 5W-50 uses them though.

No doubt. That doesn't mean it's not shear-stable in this particular application. There are plenty of oils that contain VIIs and don't shear, as you know.


Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
I believe SIXSPEED is operating under the assumption that the 5W-50 will shear in use, which is a fairly safe assumption, IMO. AFAIK, he doesn't have any established issues with his car, he's just looking to find the RL viscosity that is best suited to his car given their characteristic high HTHS viscosity for the given grade.

Right.

What I'm saying is, we don't know the cause of the expected shear, whether it applies to his car, and whether it will affect Red Line 5w-40 as well. Of course, Red Line 5w-40 is less likely to shear, and probably wouldn't shear as much. But choosing it because its virgin viscosity is close to that of a sheared 5w-50 leaves a lot less margin for error.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Since it's the factory spec' oil, the shear is nothing to be worried about. It's not like the Ford engineers aren't intimately aware of the oil's characteristics.

...

Also keep in mind, since your car is equipped with an oil pressure gauge (I hope it is a fully functional gauge), any deviation from the factory spec' oil should be done only after becoming very familiar with the oil pressure characteristics of your engine; i.e., what are the minimum OP spec's and what is the oil pump's bypass OP level set at.

Agreed.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
What I'm saying is, we don't know the cause of the expected shear, whether it applies to his car, and whether it will affect Red Line 5w-40 as well. Of course, Red Line 5w-40 is less likely to shear, and probably wouldn't shear as much. But choosing it because its virgin viscosity is close to that of a sheared 5w-50 leaves a lot less margin for error.


The point here is that Red Line 5W-40 has a comparable virgin HTHS viscosity to that of Motorcraft 5W-50. Hence the reason he is looking into Red Line 5W-40/10W-40 instead of his current Red Line 5W-50, which has a much higher virgin HTHS viscosity than Motorcraft 5W-50.

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
This a 5W-50 we are talking about, even the best POE and PAO base stocks are going to require VIIs to get there. RL manages to blend a 5W-30 without any VIIs, I'm willing to bet their 5W-50 uses them though.

No doubt. That doesn't mean it's not shear-stable in this particular application. There are plenty of oils that contain VIIs and don't shear, as you know.


I would guess that Motorcraft 5W-50 is far more shear prone than even the most shear happy 0W-40s.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: SIXSPEED
Yeah, but the Motorcraft 5W50 oil shears to a 40 grade in less than 1400 miles ... to the same KV as the RL 5W40 (15.1 cSt).

Based on what? I'm sure some cars shear it that far in that many miles, but is that the norm?

Also, do you know what the cause of the shearing is? It's likely to affect the 5w-40, too. If it's fuel dilution, you'll have a hard time finding an oil that doesn't shear....

Based on my UOA and others I've seen. One UOA shows the MC oil shearing to a 30 grade in 2000 miles and another shearing to a 30 grade in 6000 miles. The tendency to shear probably has to do with the wide multi-grade range, use of VII with poor Shear Stability Index and all the heat this motor puts out. Here's a link to my UOA. As you can see fuel dilution is not an issue.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2123200#Post2123200
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Since it's the factory spec' oil, the shear is nothing to be worried about. It's not like the Ford engineers aren't intimately aware of the oil's characteristics.
Having said, since the Motorcraft 5W-50 doesn't have a high HTHS vis to start with, after shearing it's HTHS vis value is likely no higher than RL's 5W-30 which does not shear. That's the RL grade I would suggest or perhaps their somewhat heavier 0W-40.
And when comparing oils, forget about the KV100 spec' and look to the HTHS vis' for a true indicator how thick or thin an oil is.

The Motorcraft Oil's HTHS is only 3.7 minimum.

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Also keep in mind, since your car is equipped with an oil pressure gauge (I hope it is a fully functional gauge), any deviation from the factory spec' oil should be done only after becoming very familiar with the oil pressure characteristics of your engine; i.e., what are the minimum OP spec's and what is the oil pump's bypass OP level set at.

My oil pressure gauge is not what you think ... it's the factory dash gauge; it's not that functional for the purposes you describe.
 
Originally Posted By: Johnny
As I said in an earlier post,


Originally Posted By: Johnny
For your application I would contact Dave at Red Line and go by his recommendation.

I did ... thank you.
 
Originally Posted By: SIXSPEED
Originally Posted By: Johnny
As I said in an earlier post,


Originally Posted By: Johnny
For your application I would contact Dave at Red Line and go by his recommendation.

I did ... thank you.


What did he say?
 
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