Red Line 5w20 - 7,000 miles - Dodge Ram

[buster]

Bizarre comments from Red Line. I sent this to Dave and also messaged Red Line on FB. The response I received back on FB is really bizarre. Have a look.

I asked this question before: Assume Red Line or any boutique brand works with an additive supplier and buys an additive package. They then formulate the oil to their desire. If these oils are never tested in engine tests, how do you know how well they really do the job? How would one know that Red Line does well in the SEQ X chain wear test? This makes me think that these types of oils, Driven included, are only ideal for racing where you're doing teardowns periodically. I know for a fact that Driven and Red Line oils are never subjected to engine sequence tests. It's just assumed they would pass them.

"Mike,
We often see levels go up when our oil is first introduced due to the reactivity with surface oxides and taper in subsequent samples.

Regards,
Dave Granquist"

FB response (someone entirely different responded to this):
"Just a quick glance the sodium levels is introducing contamination. It’s not coolant because lack of water/glycol but maybe the Sodium is an indicator of contamination with salt. Whether it is from moisture ingression from a nearby source of salt water, or airborne particulate ingression from nearby roads that are salted in the wintertime. This can also be a little factor in the increase viscosity. If you park the vehicle in the winter but live near salt water consider changing the oil before the winter. This removes dirty oil from sitting long period of time to build up. If you don’t drive in the winter where there is salt then maybe consider changing oil filter before winter and top off the oil to give it a boost. Maybe check air filter more often to help with salt too."

 

[JustN89]

I'd withhold judgement on any oil on an engine with just 15k miles and 2 OCIs. Like with anything, one sample doesn't tell the whole story. We'd need to see a few more samples with this oil and filter combo before we can start condemning anything here. As for the comments, Dave's are consistent with what we've heard from him and others parroted on here before. The one from Facebook- well, I wouldn't look for anything of value from Facebook. Just my $.02.

 

[buster]

I'd withhold judgement on any oil on an engine with just 15k miles and 2 OCIs. Like with anything, one sample doesn't tell the whole story. We'd need to see a few more samples with this oil and filter combo before we can start condemning anything here. As for the comments, Dave's are consistent with what we've heard from him and others parroted on here before. The one from Facebook- well, I wouldn't look for anything of value from Facebook. Just my $.02.

I agree. It was from Red Line's customer service though on FB.

 

[Oildudeny]

Why

 

[The Critic]

Link to the original uoa:

UOA - Red Line 5w-20 w/7k miles

Attached is my UOA from Blackstone. I ran Red Line 5w-20 with a Royal Purple 10-48 filter for 7,100 miles; 15,100mi on odometer. I put in the same and will try the change at 5k miles (20k truck miles). Copper and iron are high. Does anyone else have UOAs that are this high on copper? Truck...

5thgenrams.com

 

[wpod]

Other that for educational purposes or a concern for a coolant leak,, a uoa is a waste of $$$$ for a new engine. The viscosity is interesting

 

[Deleted member 89374]

I run Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 in my 2016 RAM 1500 with the 5.7 HEMI and it runs like a champ. Can't wait to do an UOA. That being said, it's not normal for the viscosity to increase like that in 7,100 miles. Their responses are both stupid because they either don't know why, or they know and don't want to talk about it.

When I say they might know, I mean that there might be a quality control issue where the viscosity got slightly messed up in a batch of you got
0W-30 or 5W-30 on those 5W-20 bottles. If that's the case, then it's a really scarry thought that if you buy Redline oil, you might get a surprise viscosity on your bottle. Not even Pennzoil screws up viscosity like this, and they had their quality control issues in the past, and the fact that to this day Pennzoil doesn't seal their containers is very concerning. That, and the additive package dropping out of suspension, with Pennzoil that is. I can't imagine any other cause, a bit of sodium won't cause your oil to turn into a 5W-30.

 

[edyvw]

I run Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 in my 2016 RAM 1500 with the 5.7 HEMI and it runs like a champ. Can't wait to do an UOA. That being said, it's not normal for the viscosity to increase like that in 7,100 miles. Their responses are both stupid because they either don't know why, or they know and don't want to talk about it.

When I say they might know, I mean that there might be a quality control issue where the viscosity got slightly messed up in a batch of you got
0W-30 or 5W-30 on those 5W-20 bottles. If that's the case, then it's a really scarry thought that if you buy Redline oil, you might get a surprise viscosity on your bottle. Not even Pennzoil screws up viscosity like this, and they had their quality control issues in the past, and the fact that to this day Pennzoil doesn't seal their containers is very concerning. That, and the additive package dropping out of suspension, with Pennzoil that is. I can't imagine any other cause, a bit of sodium won't cause your oil to turn into a 5W-30.

This go around is interesting in light of their lack of any approval for Performance series. I always say about Redline (and I use their driveline fluids), why not getting approvals(they are cheap)? Everything is meets and exceeds, but no approvals.

 

[buster]

This go around is interesting in light of their lack of any approval for Performance series. I always say about Redline (and I use their driveline fluids), why not getting approvals(they are cheap)? Everything is meets and exceeds, but no approvals.

Well they won't pay for the engine Sequence tests, as those are expensive.

 

[bulwnkl]

This go around is interesting in light of their lack of any approval for Performance series. I always say about Redline (and I use their driveline fluids), why not getting approvals(they are cheap)?

Could it be that it comes down to lack of read-across tables for the base combinations Red Line (or others) wants to use? That would make these kinds of certs VERY expensive to obtain, and would effectively preclude formulation modifications.

The lower-quality or lower-cost bases the approved fluids use allow read-across which makes adjustments and test-free approvals easy and cheap, yeah?

 

[edyvw]

Well they won't pay for the engine Sequence tests, as those are expensive.

They already developed oil, and claim it exceeds approvals. Approvals are around $4,000-4,500. Development is expensive, sending oil to manufacturer to get approval is cheap. So, there is something behind. Amsoil did on some of their oils. Nothing stops Redline. Also, Redline is now part of P66.

 

[edyvw]

Could it be that it comes down to lack of read-across tables for the base combinations Red Line (or others) wants to use? That would make these kinds of certs VERY expensive to obtain, and would effectively preclude formulation modifications.

The lower-quality or lower-cost bases the approved fluids use allow read-across which makes adjustments and test-free approvals easy and cheap, yeah?

It is around $4,000-4,500. I worked on oils that had to get approvals, plus I actually posted here letter from VW with approval and price they charged to test oil and approve it.

 

[buster]

They already developed oil, and claim it exceeds approvals. Approvals are around $4,000-4,500. Development is expensive, sending oil to manufacturer to get approval is cheap. So, there is something behind. Amsoil did on some of their oils. Nothing stops Redline. Also, Redline is now part of P66.

I received a good answer from someone that worked at a boutique oil company. This is what he said:

"Those sequence tests are very expensive. As such, most blenders don’t run those tests themselves. It is the additive companies (Lubrizol, Afton, Oronite and Infineum) that mostly run these tests.
These test are only relevant on un-modified street engines. They don’t predict race or heavily modified engine conditions accurately. As such, they are not directly relevant to engines such as these.
Of course, developing oils for these engines requires engine testing similar to the ASTM sequences. That is why I spent so much time dyno testing when I was with Driven. There wasn’t an industry standard test for high performance and race engines, so we developed one ourselves."


"For a un-modified, daily driver racing oils are not appropriate. A fully licensed product will have passed all of those tests you mentioned.
This is where “there is no one-size-fits-all, best oil” needs to be mentioned. Application always dictates chemistry. Start with the application (you can get pretty granular here) and then walk it back to oil type and viscosity. Brand is the last choice in the decision tree.
I hope that helps."

 

[bulwnkl]

It is around $4,000-4,500. I worked on oils that had to get approvals, plus I actually posted here letter from VW with approval and price they charged to test oil and approve it.

You seem to have missed or ignored my post content.

 

[edyvw]

You seem to have missed or ignored my post content.

No I did not, I know what you saying.
First of all, manufacturers do not require oil companies to use any certain base stock. They require certain parameters and what kind of base stock company is going to use is up to them. What manufacturers want is oil to comply with those assign parameters.
Second, yes it could be that Redline is shooting for something else, which means they could not pass test. But than that oil does not meet or exceed approvals. That oil cannot be approved. Why? That is the key.

I received a good answer from someone that worked at a boutique oil company. This is what he said:

"Those sequence tests are very expensive. As such, most blenders don’t run those tests themselves. It is the additive companies (Lubrizol, Afton, Oronite and Infineum) that mostly run these tests.
These test are only relevant on un-modified street engines. They don’t predict race or heavily modified engine conditions accurately. As such, they are not directly relevant to engines such as these.
Of course, developing oils for these engines requires engine testing similar to the ASTM sequences. That is why I spent so much time dyno testing when I was with Driven. There wasn’t an industry standard test for high performance and race engines, so we developed one ourselves."


"For a un-modified, daily driver racing oils are not appropriate. A fully licensed product will have passed all of those tests you mentioned.
This is where “there is no one-size-fits-all, best oil” needs to be mentioned. Application always dictates chemistry. Start with the application (you can get pretty granular here) and then walk it back to oil type and viscosity. Brand is the last choice in the decision tree.
I hope that helps."

Sure, yes, they are targeting modified engines etc. But then how is that oil exceeding approvals? If they never tested that oil against certain specifications, how they can claim that "meets" and "exceeds?" I worked for a company that was smaller than Redline (without Phillips66) itself, yet company had all necessary approvals for their line up of oils.
So yes, it could be that Redline has bunch of ZDDP and for example cannot get approval due to harm it could cause to emission system. But then why would you use oil like that? That is the problem. Approvals are there so that you can run oil without thinking whether you will have to change catalytic converter in 50k etc. What they saying is really not some excuse. Racing oils should not be used on the street. Why they are selling it then as a street oil? We are talking here about 5W20 that they sell to people driving Honda's etc. Their Euro line up is even worse. They claim all kind of stuff, yet no approvals in sight.

 

[rob1715]

Just use PP, PUP, QS, or any other synth brand off the shelf/on sale with a good filter and OCI and be done with it.

 

[bulwnkl]

I worked for a company that was smaller than Redline (without Phillips66) itself, yet company had all necessary approvals for their line up of oils.

How about an example? What are the exact tests required to pass VW 508? How about Porsche A40, too? They only cost about $4k apiece, right? And no BOI or read-across from your additive supplier involved, right?

 

[Gene K]

How about an example? What are the exact tests required to pass VW 508? How about Porsche A40, too? They only cost about $4k apiece, right? And no BOI or read-across from your additive supplier involved, right?

I don't know what the requirements for 508 are but 504/507 requires a Certification for ACEA C3 as a prerequisite. I suspect most others are similar. For instance Ford WSS M2C-961A1 requires SP GF-6A as a prerequisite.

 

[OilReport99]

how they can claim that "meets" and "exceeds?

Because they can. Meets and Exceeds is not a legal standard. Is up to you to decide whether to use it or not.
And stop censoring about it.

 

[bulwnkl]

I don't know what the requirements for 508 are but 504/507 requires a Certification for ACEA C3 as a prerequisite. I suspect most others are similar. For instance Ford WSS M2C-961A1 requires SP GF-6A as a prerequisite.

And that is how the certs edyvw claims are $4k or so might become radically more expensive. Still, I'll let him reply and see what he has to say on the topic.