Red Line 10w-30 in '01 GM 3.8L V6 w/SC for 8549miles

[jason07-1zzfe]

Forgot to post TBN... it was 1.8

haley10, as most know Terry doesn't want his interpretations made public. Ocasionally he posts here for freebies though. So I won't be sharing specifics. But most will also know from his comments here, 99% of time he will be against anything thicker than xw-30.

Yeah I've heard the tranny is hanging by a thread on this puppy. Last two fluid changes it was really loaded up with wear metals too. I hope it slows down soon. I can't imagine it's still breaking in. I'm keeping tranny changes on a short schedule until wear slows. Maybe it never will

 

[Spector]

Look at these samples. Same engine
http://home.comcast.net/~armtdm/Buick.pdf

Lead is much better with the Amsoil 10W. Basically more miles on oil and about the same total mileage.

However, me thinks it is your WOT driving habits with the lead issue!

[ January 15, 2004, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Spector ]

 

[tec97]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the silicon number. It looks comparable w/ the GM filter to those I've seen from the much-maligned K&N...

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

Just caught your edit, Spector. I was going to say don't be so quick to blame the oil...
Here's one with ATM too:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000538

I was going to ask how much you redline your motor and how often its WOT. But probably not often after seeing edit...

There is possiblity of other issues with my motor. Looking into it. Likely its mostly from the abuse...IMO. We'll see.

tec97...take a look at RL VOA's. Most certainly ALL of that Si is additive. VOA's typically have MORE than that. Some will deplete.

 

[Spector]

I think the Si looks pretty good myself. You are correct, I rarely push it so that may account for the lead. the other ATM report you site is much worse then ours.

Note that I used the #132 and LC at 6000 miles on mine and the viscosity crept into the low 40W range.

Be really interested if you can share Terry's comments when they come in, probably cannot but perhaps in a generic sense.

[ January 15, 2004, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: Spector ]

 

[TooSlick]

I can't believe the Redline 10w-30 is too thin for any domestic motor? GM puts the Mobil 1, 5w-30 in the LS-1 engines and it's significantly thinner than Redline....

The Redline additive chemistry may simply not work well with the very soft lead overlays that GM uses for their bearings. Redline works especially well in Toyotas and all German engines, but they use a different and harder bearing overlay material that also contains some nickel and tin, along with lead....Terry knows more about this stuff than I do certainly, but the Redline is reacting with the lead in this engine and you have now used it three times in a row.

My advice would be to get a different car or get a different oil.... I heard once the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Mobil 1 seems to provide excellent bearing wear in GM engines - I'd use some Mobil 1, 10w-30, or try the GC, 0w-30. Lead wear should never been higher than iron wear in any V-6 or V-8 engine, in fact it should be more like 25%-33% of the iron level.

Ted

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
3.8L V-6 with Supercharger
AC UPF-52 oil filter
Original factory air filter

Blackston Labs w/ Dyson Package #46

RESULTS:

code:

---

SAMPLE DATE: 01/07/04 (interval began 10/03)

MI/HR ON OIL: 8,549

MI/HR ON UNIT: 41,062

MAKEUP OIL ADDED: 0 QTS.

.

ALUMINUM 5

CHROMIUM 1

IRON 12

COPPER 97

LEAD 23

TIN 3

MOLYBDENUM 512

NICKEL 0

MANGANESE 2

SILVER 0

TITANIUM 0

POTASSIUM 19

BORON 10

SILICON 11

SODIUM 13

CALCIUM 2999

MAGNESIUM 6

PHOSPHORUS 1043

ZINC 1266

BARIUM 0

.

SUS VIS 67.4

FLASH 405F

FUEL
A/F 0.0%

WATER 0.0%

INSOLUBLES 0.4%

---

This is 3rd interval on RL.
I'm begining to think GM can't build a well balanced engine(re: lead) if their life depended on it.

They really suck...
Can't wait to hear back from Terry.
But I think I may be trying 5w40 once I use up my xw30 and I know Terry will be against it. But the study Molakule posted in HTHS topic in QOTD section was with a GM 3.8 and it showed less bearing wear with a 40wt.
Driving conditions same as previous. Lost of open suburban/semi-rural road driving. She drives normal. But I really romp on it whenever I get a chance. Smoking tires...redline 1,2 and 3 if get chance, etc... ~600 mi are road trip, nearly every time I pass someone it's WOT.

 

[haley10]

Jeez Jason. You drive hard.

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by haley10:
Jeez Jason. You drive hard.

---

This is his wife's car, imagine how much more the wear would be if his lead foot were pushing down on the gas pedal of this car more often!

By the way, nickel looks excellent!

 

[haley10]

I can't wait to hear either. You drive hard, but the oil looks good and the wear doesn't. Maybe you did need a 40wt.

I wonder if the tranny is up to this task?? I've heard that it's at it's outer limits with this one.

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

Yeah I don't think it's vis related either. Just an amateur knee-jerk reaction by me.

Speaking of knee-jerk reactions...

Ted I heard the definition of insanity is seeing something over and over that isn't there despite evidence presented otherwise.

I'm not expecting a different result. I'm getting a different result. Lead is trending down, and it doesn't have much to do with the oil. Mostly due to the engine but my original theory is probably wrong. But GM still may suck due to other reason. Such is life with used cars. No big deal.

 

[wrangler]

I hate to say this but if this was a result of Amsoil’s S2K oil it would have caught a beating from most of you guys.

 

[Terry]

Spector and Ted, let me try this without going too far.. the way Jason drives approximates oil analysis reports we have to actual road racing oil analysis ! The guy only drives this car maybe 15% of the time but he is about to drop the trans because of the driving technique !!! His Bimmer gets romped on and RL is working well there too.

IF any other brand of oil had been used in this car the wear would would be exponentially higher !

I am not going to disclose all the data I have on this engine or all causal factors.....but suffice it to say that the bearing wear we see is residual and is correcting ( trending down) after some major events it experienced both chemically and mechanically. That on 8500+ mile intervals.

To repeat we are dropping wear not increasing it.

BTW I have suggested a 10,000 interval on the new RL.

 

[buster]

I completely understand Terry's position. I've been hard on Redline's UOA's, but what the hell do I know? Exactly, not much.

Terry is a tribologist with years in the field. I'm sure he wouldnt recommend an oil that is not good. I picked up a nice magazine at Border's the other day called Racer. It is a magazine that has NASCAR, F1, CART and those Acura RSX's and other ricers. Quite a few high end cars had Redline oil in them. From what I understand, Redline is very well respected in the racing world. I know some of these were using their racing oils, but some were not. The RSX Redline car doesn't.

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jason Troxell:
-*-* I'm getting a different result. Lead is trending down, and it doesn't have much to do with the oil. -*-*

---

Hey, I'd like to see those side by side. If its trending DOWN, then Yes, hang in there. That's good News.
IMO it would be something related to the oil, has to be, if the trend is down... NO matter how MUCH the ENGINE can THINK or WANNA get better results, the oils got a role.

 

[Spector]

quote:

---

Originally posted by wrangler:
I hate to say this but if this was a result of Amsoil’s S2K oil it would have caught a beating from most of you guys.

---

Like saying motorcycle accident deaths are 1000/year but hey, if not for helmet laws they would be 3000/year, it is coming down so 1000/yr is great!!! Substitute Redline in this reasoning which is primarily what I see on this site. I don't know squat about oil analysis but I concur, we are always finding reasons why RedLine is either doing the job or not doing the job or that other oils would have done worse. Just an opnion gained by simply reading the posts on this site!

Again, no expertise in the area just info gathered from reading the UOA on RedLine and no info on the engine or other databases. Kind of like you beleive in God because you have faith! No proof there is a God but pure faith!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Terry]

Spector,

Good observation, interesting analogies; maybe not quite accurate......the BITOG UOA universe here is not complete. The mechanical and "Event' issues UNdisclosed here do affect the result.

I can't afford to provide total disclosure. Maybe we could if we had a secure thread with customers who have paid me to provide a online read here on BITOG ?

I suggest the use of Redline brand lubes in extreme aplications because of superior construct and durability. If any other brand made that kind of lube I would suggest it to. Check out the NEO2 oil analysis that was posted recently, diester based and very similar to the older 1970's Amsoil formulations. I like what I see in the NEO results. Most won't spend the $10 a qt for that oil and diester bases have other issues that I find primarily TMP POE base superior to.

Have you tried Redline in your cars and trended the analysis knowing what you do about their operating issues and conditions? Might be instructive and not any more expensive than using other synthetics.


Some of my customers post their results here out of a sense of sharing, including the more difficult to analyze ones.Maybe more of those.

My comments could clarify the more nebulous and obscure readings, except that unlike GOD I won't write a Bible for you to reference nor send my Son for you to crucify as he attempts to explain the simple but simultaneously complex oil analysis issues. You wouldn't believe or accept him anyway !!!

What I have shared is as much as I can since I analyze oil for hire and in "reading " the results I disclose much of my techniques to the customer , who could , reverse engineer those proprietary techniques and ruin 25 years of work for me.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Remember it takes trending to determine anything with UOA other then catastrophic failure. You also have to know the history of a car! It can take some time for damage to a bearing to slow down it's accelerated failure to a point that it becomes stabil again.

You see this in amature road raceing/rally raceing. If you have a contact scar on a bearing the initial scar will continue to open until the edges of the scar are regular and tapered/feathered. This process is both chemical and mechanical. In time this accelerated bearing wear will either trend down to a more acceptable level or you will begine to see lower portions of the bearing becomeing exposed and wearing so tin,cadnium,sliver, aluminum,copper will start to rise as lead falls depending on the design of the bearing.

So it could stabilise at a higher then normal wear rate or it could just start delaminateing and shedding material real bad. Either way the best that can be expected is to extend it's life it will never have normal life expectency.

I am keen to see how Redline does to stabilise this! The fact that it is able to lay down a scarifical layer and bonds to soft metals might prove interesting!

 

[Last_Z]

Just wanted to throw in my $0.02

I have also questioned Redline's ability to protect based on UOAs. It seems to me that sometimes there is much more than meets the eye and only highly trained people can see. I can not guarantee Terry's knowledge, since I've never seen his credits, but most would agree he knows his stuff and would trust him based on that.
My point is that I asked Terry if I should use Redline instead of GC in my Z28 and he say that I should give the GC a try since it looked good. When he says he is not biased towards Redline, I believe him! I also believe he has a lot of faith in Redline oil from past experiences.
I would still like to try Redline in the future, but if Terry recommends otherwise....then why bother?

Rick

 

[JohnBrowning]

LastZ, I will posting my first run of Redline when winter is over as my base line. I will also post my second run with Redline so we can hopefuly see a trending down with each change of Redline. I am then going to try Delvac 1 5W40 for two changes. I am hopeing that we can see how doing two OCI with each one effects the trend. I am really just doing this to develop some more data on Redline as hardly anyone runs the stuff twice in a row on this site.

After those two oils are tested I plan on testing my tried and true policy of M1 15W50 in the summer and 10W30 in the winter to compare to the two above tested oils. Seeing how it takes me about 6 months to hit the 7500 mile mark it will take me a few years.

Seeing how the engine in my Camry is a new design with micro-groved bearings, low tensuion this and micro polished that...... it should prove interesting.