Racing Applications

[Professor]

I’m a newbie to this forum. I’ve been lurking for a bit and decided to toss in a question.

First, I’ll throw in a bit of an intro: I’m not new to synthetics and have a bit of knowledge about lubricating oils. I have used synthetics since 93 on a GM 350. It is gone after 150K miles of faithful service. I currently run synthetics in about everything I own. I am a fan of Mobil products but have used Amsoil in a few applications. I run Mobile V-twin in the Harley with 75-90 in the trans. (I’m thinking about 10-40 in the primary on the next change). I have a 6.2 diesel with 350K on it. Motor fresh @ 120K Mystic 15-50 to 340K now using Delvac1. First analysis looked great with 6K on the oil. Mobil 1 in the trans and rear. GMC 6.0 with M1 in the engine, changing the rest soon.

Ok now to the question. I’ve played with Amsoil 20-50 racing in an 360ci alcohol injected Dirt Sprint Car engine. On the dyno, a change from 25-50 Penz to 20-50 Amsoil reflected a gain in HP. Amsoil was used without failure for a couple of seasons, but we did see some failures with the dino after that. Based on the previous success we had with the synthetic on the other car, we are thinking about going that route on a different car. With some of the reading/research I have done, I am thinking about going with 5-40 Delvac1. Other options include a 0-40 or even a 0-30 I am worried about shear with the wide gap in the low-high viscosity (isn’t delvac 1 close to being a 50w). With a dry sump oiling system, the oil makes quite a few passes through the pump. It is pumped to a holding tank and then a second time back to the engine. The goal is a gain in horsepower, better reliability and possibly extended use of the oil. We would like to run it 3 to 6 races (approx 30-50 laps) per change with a filter change/inspection every 1 to 2 weeks. Considering we are running on dirt and wanting to extend the oil life, a close watch of the oil though analysis is in order. We plan on initially processing a sample each week to get a good baseline going.

Any comments/suggestions? Sprintman? Dragboat?

Thanks!

 

[Terry]

Welcome Professor ! We need more methanol burning dirt rocket guys to chime in !

Do you offer shoe time for free oil analysis. Going through racing withdrawel myself. Doing work for racers is for me like a starving child working as a waiter.

Which Amsoil formula did you use ? Why switch back to PEnnz if no failures for 2 seasons on the Amsoil ? Looking at Synergyn ? Being an Okie I'm suprised that you haven't used Synergyn before. Have you talked to the other Dysons in Durant ?

What kind of new car setup do you have,still mopar ?

Fuel dilution issues ? Who's Dyno do you use and who builds the engines ?

Where do you race mostly? With the current sponsoship void with Dirt here how are you making ends meet ?

Sorry... I'm excited.

[ January 09, 2003, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Terry ]

 

[JonS]

Why do so many dirt track racers use Pennzoil 25w-50? Do they ever use straight weights? Most of the races are in warm climates - correct?

 

[TooSlick]

Professor,

Your goals of improving durability and performance at the same time are sort of mutually exclusive. However, you can gain several horsepower by running the Series 2000, 0w-30 instead of the 20w-50. I saw information from somebody who did this with a Yahama "R6" bike engine and they picked up 2 hp on the dyno.

However, if you go with the very low viscosity synthetic, you may impact engine life to some degree. How much effect this will have on durability is difficult to say exactly. If you were to tighten up the bearing clearances or go to a higher capacity oil pump, you could probably make this switch without too much of a tradeoff.

I don't think going to a 5w-40 diesel oil that is not friction modified is going to do much if anything for performance. The same would hold true of going to the Amsoil 10w-40 or 15w-40. You would really need to go to a 0w-30/5w-30/10w-30, friction modified, gas engine oil to see any significant gains on a dyno ....

If you post some additional information on the operating parameters of this engine, we can give you better advice ....

 

[Pablo]

Since you said it was a few years ago - you may want run the Series 2000 20W-50 TRO (I'm assuming you ran the reg. 20W-50 ARO)

I run the TRO hard for 10000 mile OCI's in my turbo with little wear and it spins up fine on frosty morings - point being these oil may be a good balance for your application.

What kind of air filter do you use?

 

[Professor]

Terry,

I can’t commit on any shoe time. I kind of went from tuner/crew chief to mud scrapper over the last few years.

I actully play with the weather station and do a bit more. Just a whole lot less than I used too.

I’m not sure about the formula, someone else was ordering it and paying the bill. It was about 96-97 when we were using it. I don’t remember more than one formula in the racing oils at the time. I bet I can find out, however (didn’t the 2000 series come out later?). The car owner and the engine builder did not know we were running the synthetic. The owner bought 20 or so cases of the Penz and we were kind of forced into using it. If I remember correctly we lost 3 engines in 4 races. Don’t know if the oil was to blame or not, but I did not have a good feeling about.

Synergyn is a possibility. Only downside is the availability. (also my only complaint about Amsoil) I like being able to go into a store and pick it up on a moments notice.

Fuel dilution is also a concern, but less of a concern with a normally aspirated engine. We never analyzed the oil before. I do however feel there is a need to do so. We also have seen quite a bit of water due to condensation and the cooling effect of alcohol on the intake/injectors.

These were Chevrolet steel head (bowtie) stock port engines per the local rule and NCRA requirements. One was a stock block 4.030 w/3.500 crank. The other was a bowtie block with 4.135 and a 3.300 stroke. Boyd in Norman built the engines. The only time ours was on the dyno (Boyd’s) in the 5 years I was involved it was with dino. The engine I saw with an increase was very similar, but on someone else’s. We have all parted ways and I have been actually helping a guy with a Mopar power most recently.

Oklahoma City is the primary track but we have traveled OK, KS, TX, AR over the years. I have been messing with these since the 100in days in the late 70’s.

Making ends meet? We usually don’t!

 

[jsharp]

Why not try 15W-50 Mobil-1? I guess it would be slightly thinner than what your currently using and it solves your availablity problems.

[ January 09, 2003, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: jsharp ]

 

[Professor]

JonS
The reason I have heard is the spread of 25-50 is less than the more common 20-50. With the shear they are worried about the additives and modifiers breaking down and loosing the ability to act as a 50 weight oil at high temps. I can somewhat understand their concerns with dino.

Most have gotten away from straight weights. I won’t use a straight weight. There is not time to preheat and the car might sit for 2 hours. They have to be push started and you have maybe 5 or 6 laps to warm the engine. A mechanical injected alcohol engine doesn’t usually build heat quickly until it is placed under a load.

 

[Bootlegger]

Professor,
Ever run at the Fairgrounds in Sedalia Mo??? I've been the flagman there for the last 5 yrs. NCRA always puts on a good show wherever they run

Are you going to make it over to the Chili Bowl this week in Tulsa??

 

[dragboat]

Professor
I could spot the engine builder a mile away when you posted Pennzoil.
Synergyn is at several places in OKC but you imo need to know ALL you bearing and rod side clearances and a few more details,tricks and more before choosing a oil.

The best race oil imo for your Alky motor has not yet been mentioned

This is the wrong place to be asking in my opinion,,,the pits are where you find out whats working and whats not,who's is using pan blankets and who's not although the one you need imo is readily available but it is not cheap and it not at Boyds,as you know going fast costs money, how much money and how fast do you want to go still entails the engine living till the end of the race,few coasts though and gets the checkered with a windowed block

to the forum and take care

[ January 09, 2003, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]

 

[Johnny]

Professor: IMHO I do not believe the Pennzoil GT25W50 had anything to do with the engine problems you mentioned. I have seen to many WOO SPRINTS make to many laps around Devils Bowl Speedway and the fairgrounds at OKC using this oil. This is an excellent oil for alky burning sprints.

I do know a few things about Sprint Cars. Back in 1987-1988 I was the President of the Texas Sprint Car Racing Assocation, based in Dallas. Everytime WOO made a Southwest tour to Dallas, Houston, OKC, Lawton, and Tulsa, I went with them. Now I'm in Wisconsin. I still go visit with my friends when they come to Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Fargo ND.

Sprintman: If you read this, did you get that signed picture of Steve that I sent you.

From one OLD transplated Okie to another, welcome to the board.

 

[Terry]

WOO, Hey dragboat my wife went all through school in Bloomington Indiana with Steve Kinser, who is sponsored by QS. I was raised there also.

Didn't know you were a fan of MR. Sprintcar !

You are correct Johnny the Pennzoil product deals with the fuel issues better than many syns who tend to absorb the alcohol and not release it easily,while degrading the lubricity of the oil.

Why Amsoil went to 60w racing oil recently. THats why I wondered which AMsoil you used prof.

[ January 10, 2003, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Terry ]