Questions for the “only oils with approvals!” crowd- API vs good oil engineering
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We all know it’s @tig1, why beat around the bush?
And I’m not denying his results. But also, Mobil 1 has never been known to deliver “just enough to meet the standard” in their flagship line. Nothing they do is to API minimum requirements even though plenty here have expressed concern every oil generation that their stuff “looks” anemic on paper.
I'll just leave these here 195K on walmart M1 (mostly)
Also I really wish y'all would stop acting like MMWA is some kinda teflon...
What is interesting is many new car manufacturers provide free oil changes for a couple years from purchase. Those mileage intervals are maxed out. Once the freebies go away suddenly the suggested paid for by customer intervals drop dramatically. It is all about the bottom line. I really like how Red Line and Ravenol look after using them and their non-approved status. I have been convinced by this board that I am wasting my money and potentially voiding my warranty by using these boutiques. I have now whole heartedly embraced approved oils. I am liking the Valvoline Euro 504/507 but the Mobil1 equivalent isn't as visually appealing on the valvetrain or drained,used, product to my eye. The Red Line really produces a clean engine and I attribute that to the heavier splash of group V they typically use. At the end of the day you don't hear about engine failure due to oil much anymore. I remember 1970's oil and the nasty look under the valve covers, galley's and pans after 100k miles when most engines were plain worn out. I got some HPL for break in because I wanted that zinc and the extra cost was worth it to me. I have toyed with using more of their product but their cost versus other boutiques is comparable....like I said, I really like Red Line.
I used HPL for breaking in the 440 in this car.
I used HPL for breaking in the 440 in this car.
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4WD
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No you don’t - that’s not @k you had wrote and I pointed at …
(largest grouping of miles posted here) …
Call me lazy, what thread has the 80k engine? Was the PVC system ever serviced?
Anyway, API certification costs $$$$$$, its in their documents for how much the licensing cost is, but that alone from simple cost/benefit analysis HPL probably said why bother and any criticism is invalid.
4WD
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Good read about the Pentastar - I tend to think like O/K that some bad parts went out the door on some
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/626-000-mile-pentastar-teardown.329423/page-4
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/626-000-mile-pentastar-teardown.329423/page-4
No. Only if you used a non-OE oil that meets the manufacturer recommended can MM come into play. MM isn't a catch-all save for using things that don't meet the OE's specs/requirements. Example...not using Toyota oil instead using DIY with records of say Quaker State that meets Toyota's requirements. That's what MM is for. As opposed to...even though the scenario is basically never going to happen...have fun with warranty with a vehicle using non-approved oil and going well beyond the OEM's recommended OCI. MM won't be any help.
But which one is it? You say it has to meet manufacturer’s recommendations, and I highly doubt that any oil one is directed to use by Amsoil or Redline’s oil finder will not meet or exceed the tests for that tier of API for a given year. Is the oil manufacturer’s “meets or exceeds” what matters, or is the official-yet-worth-little API starburst required?
Exactly.
The red herring in the title of the original post is "...API vs good oil engineering."
In science we should be seeing certification AND good oil engineering not versus.
Certifications are there to ENSURE minimum standards are met of that certification.
They don't necessarily dictate maximum standards (unless discussing standards that actually exist to have maximums).
This is the same reason in science we have industrial standards and certifications even on the instruments we use to TEST said subjects of certification.
It's the same reason doctors have licenses to practice. They already have the schooling, the training, and the skills but the license is there to ensure to the public that minimum standards are met and to provide a system of oversight.
A boutique oil may be better in some attributes than a certified oil, it may be worse. You primarily take the boutique oil companies word for it either way quite frankly as no one is doing the certification level testing on their own.
What I hear alot in discussing if an oil is better though are things like, "I think I'd trust company X who I can call up and directly talk with their founder and get all my questions answered and they go above and beyond and they eschew the restraints put on them by oil certifications and...." Blah blah blah.
None of that is actually scientific in the least. Science relies on rigorous and controlled testing not advertising, not whether you can verbally talk to the company owner, not a few pictures of each other engines, not some anecdotal uoas.
Certifications are simply ONE tool industries use to ensure minimum standards are met. When lives count...such as in the aviation industry you will see certifications become absolutely required...not just recommended.
In science we should be seeing certification AND good oil engineering not versus.
Certifications are there to ENSURE minimum standards are met of that certification.
They don't necessarily dictate maximum standards (unless discussing standards that actually exist to have maximums).
This is the same reason in science we have industrial standards and certifications even on the instruments we use to TEST said subjects of certification.
It's the same reason doctors have licenses to practice. They already have the schooling, the training, and the skills but the license is there to ensure to the public that minimum standards are met and to provide a system of oversight.
A boutique oil may be better in some attributes than a certified oil, it may be worse. You primarily take the boutique oil companies word for it either way quite frankly as no one is doing the certification level testing on their own.
What I hear alot in discussing if an oil is better though are things like, "I think I'd trust company X who I can call up and directly talk with their founder and get all my questions answered and they go above and beyond and they eschew the restraints put on them by oil certifications and...." Blah blah blah.
None of that is actually scientific in the least. Science relies on rigorous and controlled testing not advertising, not whether you can verbally talk to the company owner, not a few pictures of each other engines, not some anecdotal uoas.
Certifications are simply ONE tool industries use to ensure minimum standards are met. When lives count...such as in the aviation industry you will see certifications become absolutely required...not just recommended.
why do some bring up "minimum standards" , when there is no definition of "maximum standards"?
I always thought something had to meet a standard... and it either does or it doesn't.
maybe that is why oil buying and use is so simple for a person like myself.
I always thought something had to meet a standard... and it either does or it doesn't.
maybe that is why oil buying and use is so simple for a person like myself.
Put your manufacturer hat on for a minute. Somebody takes what you produce, and discards your recommendation (it's really a requirement typically at least in the owner's manuals I've seen...) and uses brand x oil for an OCI longer than you say is ok, then you are expected to cover their engine if it blows up...it's not reasonable and you'll loose every time in court. The MM was there to keep the manufacturers from forcing customers to use their parts/service to keep their warranty, simple. So now you can DIY with an oil that meets that same manufacturer's requirement purchased from the local auto parts store and keep your warranty (recommendation...really...to me these are interchangeable in this discussion but I get the discussion surrounding that difference). Sure, HPL/Amsoil/Redline is great stuff but how do you manage the customer that uses XYZ crapola oil without certs/approvals? You can't...your scenario of Wild West BITOG use what you want/for how long you want is a fantasy w/r to warranty coverage. You'll draw a line that says use an oil with the VW504 00 approval for no more than 10K miles or you're on your own and that's a realistic way to handle it. Maybe some cases are handled with "the oil didn't have anything to do with it so we're covering it" but never confuse that for what they have to/don't have to do in court based on the warranty, lawyers, etc. Folks that want to modify their cars, use non-OE-approved stuff...that isn't what MM does. Effectively using HPL for 20K miles changes on a car requiring a given approval/10K changes is the same to the manufacturer as flashing the ECU for more power with a tune...I mean, I can prove it didn't blow up the engine...you think I'm good in court with MM?
Note....I use HPL oil in my Sportwagen. I also wouldn't have an issue using HPL oil in my vehicle that was still under warranty.
It's a very reasonable position for folks here to say "no thanks" to boutique/non-approved oils and only use oils with the certs/approvals and rely on those certs/approvals to ensure a standard of performance.
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And here is the perfect example of why certifications and standards exist.
In many applications we simply can't afford for people to "...trust" or "highly doubt" if a quality standard is or is not met.
Certifications exist to remove any such doubt.
As I said in applications where "doubt" and "trust" must be replace by scientific certainty such as the aviation industry these standards and certifications are required.
"Folks...TiGeo here from the flightdeck...looks like a nice day today for flying...on-time arrival in Atlanta with partly cloudy skies and temps in the low 60s. We'll be on our way as soon as the maintenance crew makes a repair with products that aren't approved but should work just fine. Thanks for flying with us today."
A few things of note. I am told that the Trax engine is considered by some to be a "throwaway" engine. Supposedly GM condemns them (for warranty purposes) for things as simple as head gaskets (I dont think theres an official document)
The Trax owners I know typically see an OLM around 7K
I dont know that comparing the Trax engine to anything other than a Trax engine is relevant.
A D1G3 oil change at the dealer was around $70 the last time I was there a few months ago.
The Trax owners I know typically see an OLM around 7K
I dont know that comparing the Trax engine to anything other than a Trax engine is relevant.
A D1G3 oil change at the dealer was around $70 the last time I was there a few months ago.
I always use approved oil (ACEA). 
And a bit of varnish, while ugly, doesn't give any indication of compression testing, wear, performance, etc. for the engine. Clearly, to me, clean is better than dirty however but yes, apples/apples comparo is necessary.
First off the chances of any of this coming into play are very low with respect to a warranty oil failure.
You are conflating multiple issues here. Some of them depend on the wording of the OM.
For example VW says :
There's no "recommended" there, you MUST.
Honda says:
There's wiggle room there.
Neither one of them says "may meet" or "may conform" based on a third party claim. If it is not on the approved list or API approved it isn't period. If they don't conform/arnt approved then there is at least the potential of a peeing contest between the oil supplier and the vehicle manufacturer with you caught in the um.. spray.
Now MMWA -
First go read it, and i don't mean a third party interpretation, the actual act in current form.
Second, it is a federal law, good luck getting the feds to litigate it for you on an individual basis.
What it does for you is prevents the warranty from saying that you must use a particular product under tie in sales UNLESS they provide the product for free. So they cant say "you must use mobil 1 or castrol or toyota genuine oil" they can say you must use a product meeting a requirement.
It also says they must prove the aftermarket part caused the failure. This is basically worthless IMO because they have lawyers and engineers on staff and well you don't... If they decide to deny coverage you'll go broke and could have paid for the repair before you win, and you might win.
Brilliant post and I agree 100%/spot-on.
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