Capacity / Film Strength Oil Test 48 Oils.

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C/P From 540 RAT From another Forum If this is already here, then sorry. However I found this to be very very interesting READ THIS ALL, I WAS SHOCKED TO SEE REGULAR CHEVERON 5W30s capacity/film strength” compared to other oils that cost 2X or even 3X more. Quake State Defy and High Zinc Oils, How much Zinc and how they perform where it counts in real world tests Capacity / Film Strength Test This synthetic blend motor oil costs $5.29 per quart at Pep Boys. So, it is roughly half the price of a name brand, top of the line, full synthetic motor oil. Some info/claims on the bottle: ** For high mileage engines with over 75,000 miles ** Boosted zinc for extra protection ** Prevents up to 98% of future wear ** Protects high wear surfaces while still being friendly to catalytic converters and other emissions equipment ** Has seal swell to preserve worn and leaking seals ** Made by Pennzoil-Quaker State Company Here are the results of the Lab Test, which was done by ALS Tribology (formerly Staveley Labs) in Sparks, Nevada: Quaker State 10W30 Defy, API SL synthetic blend (lab tested 2012) NOTE: An API SL rating is for 2004 and older automotive engines. This rating was replaced by the API SM rating at the end of November 2004, when the 2005 models were already available. Silicon = 3 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number) Boron = 170 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge) Magnesium = 8 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge) Calcium = 2652 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge) Barium = 0 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge) Total detergent/dispersant (anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge) = 2830 ppm Zinc = 1221 ppm (anti-wear) Phos = 955 ppm (anti-wear) Moly = 99 ppm (anti-wear) Total anti-wear = 2275 ppm Potassium = 4 ppm (anti-freeze corrosion inhibitor) Sodium = 0 ppm (anti-freeze corrosion inhibitor) TBN = 6.5 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9. And in use, this becomes depleted over time as mileage accumulates) Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 11.7 (cSt range for SAE 30 is 9.3 to 12.4) And cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness ---------------------- Here you can compare the new Defy motor oil above, to Quaker State’s top of the line mainstream motor oil for new vehicles: Quaker State 5W30 Ultimate Durability, API SN synthetic (lab tested 2011) Silicon = 3 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number) Boron = <5 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge) Magnesium = 10 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge) Calcium = 2831 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge) Barium = 0 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge) Total detergent/dispersant (anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge) = 2845 ppm Zinc = 877 ppm (anti-wear) Phos = 921 ppm (anti-wear) Moly = 72 ppm (anti-wear) Total anti-wear = 1870 ppm Potassium = <5 ppm (anti-freeze corrosion inhibitor) Sodium = 0 ppm (anti-freeze corrosion inhibitor) TBN = 7.9 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9. And in use, this becomes depleted over time as mileage accumulates) Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 10.5 (cSt range for SAE 30 is 9.3 to 12.4) And cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness ------------------------------------- Let’s compare the wear protection capability of these two oils above, by looking at how their “wear test” results came out. But first, here’s some info about that oil “wear testing”, just so that everyone is on the same page. The wear testing is a motor oil friction test under load, which subjects the oil to stresses beyond what it will see in an actual running engine. That way you can separate outstanding oils from ordinary oils without having to wait for 100,000 miles to see what happened. The oil wear test is also what you might call a blind test, in that the test equipment does not know what oil it is testing, it just tests them all head to head. It doesn’t care what brand the oil is. It doesn’t care if it is a modern API certified low zinc oil or an older type traditional high zinc oil. It doesn’t care about how much detergent is in the oil. It doesn’t care what the Lab Test print out shows. All it cares about is the size of the wear scar generated. The smaller the scar, the better the oil protected against wear, and the higher the psi value. You might even say that the oil wear testing is somewhat like a ¼ mile pass, in that, in making a pass, all that matters is the time you put up on the board, which shows up on your time slip. The clock doesn’t care if you are running a GM, Ford or Mopar. It doesn’t care what your engine’s build sheet says, and it doesn’t even care about what your dyno print out says. It only cares about the performance you can lay down. In heads up racing, the quickest ET wins, no matter what (ignoring any reaction time differences of course). GM, Ford or Mopar, it just doesn’t matter. It’s simply the real deal, no matter what anyone expected. And that is why we run the races for real, rather than just looking at spec sheets. And in head to head, or call it heads up oil wear testing, the smallest wear scar wins, no matter what. High zinc or low zinc, it just doesn’t matter. It’s simply the real deal, no matter what anyone expected. And that is why I test the oil for real, rather than just looking at spec sheets. The oil wear test equipment and test procedure used, have shown that some “high zinc” oils were outstanding, while some “high zinc” oils were not. So, it makes no sense to say that high zinc oils will always produce outstanding results and always provide excellent protection, when some DO NOT. The testing has also shown that some modern “low zinc” API certified oils were outstanding, while some “low zinc” oils were not. So, it makes no sense to say that low zinc oils cannot produce outstanding results, when some DO produce outstanding results right before your eyes. And believe me, I was as surprised as anyone else, that modern API oils could be so good. So, that proves to me, that the oil companies are no dummies, and that they absolutely know what they are doing. And it has been common knowledge for years in the oil industry, that alternate chemistry is available that provides as good or better wear protection than zinc/phos (the use depends on cost and application requirements). And that alternate chemistry is just what they use in modern oils in order to reduce the zinc/phos levels and meet the necessary requirements. Few things in this world are limited to a single way of doing things. And motor oil additives are no different. So, if you didn’t perform actual real world dynamic “wear testing”, you would never know the true story about what oils are outstanding, and what oils are only ordinary. But, as for the modern “low zinc” API certified oils tested, I did only test mostly newer API SN oils, and a few API SM oils. So, I can’t speak for how good or bad the older low zinc oils may have been. Perhaps those older reduced zinc oils were not all that great, and may have been where the reduced zinc oils got their bad reputation. But, flat tappet lobe/lifter failures still do crop up here and there, even in correctly built motors, and even with high zinc oils being used. That would indicate that the failures occur because of poor parts quality rather than because of the oil being used, or because of the build quality. And as a further example of oil not being an issue with flat tappet cams, consider this. I have a Hotrodder buddy with a heavy foot, who has a ’69, 4 speed ‘Vette daily driver. He is running a solid flat tappet, 500 HP, 383ci SBC motor in it. He’s run that motor for several years now, and has over 25,000 miles on it, with absolutely no lobe/lifter issues what so ever. And the oil he uses is ……………………..plain old conventional, low zinc, API certified 5W30 Castrol GTX dino oil. And that oil produced a “load carrying capacity/film strength” of 95,392 psi in my wear testing. Ranking it an impressive 18th out of the 48 oils I’ve wear tested, putting it in the OUTSTANDING PROTECTION category. So, this is a perfect example of a real running flat tappet engine that is perfectly happy on low zinc oil (830 ppm in the API SN version and 888 ppm in the API SM version), which reflects exactly what my testing has shown. “Lab Testing” and “Wear Testing” analysis shows that extra zinc does NOT provide EXTRA protection, it only provides LONGER protection. And this is not a new discovery at all. In fact, for what it’s worth, Ed Hackett wrote an article some years ago, titled “More than you ever wanted to know about Motor Oil”. And in that article he says the exact same thing, so it’s been well known for a long time. You can Google his article if you like, and see for yourself. Keep in mind, zinc levels do NOT hold steady. Zinc is depleted as it is sacrificed to protect highly loaded parts, and is used up over time. High Performance engines will use up zinc faster than stock engines, due to their heavily loaded parts. And that is the real reason that High Performance Oils have higher levels of zinc. Because it is expected that the zinc will be used up at a faster rate in High Performance applications. So, those beloved high zinc levels will NOT stay high, unless you change your oil frequently. And you can see this drop in zinc (and phos, and moly) for yourself, if you send an oil sample into a reputable lab, before and after use. NOTE: I’m really not trying to do any bashing here, but I’ve had problems with Blackstone Labs providing bogus data in the past, where used oil numbers radically increased, which is physically impossible. They later claimed that they were using some sort of wrong correction factor. But, they never made it clear why they would even use a correction factor in the first place, instead of just reporting what was actually in the oil. Now I simply don’t trust them, so I don’t use them anymore at all. I now use only ALS Tribology in Sparks, Nevada. I’ve never had an issue with them, so I’d recommend them if you don’t have another favorite lab to use. But, keep in mind, that if you change brands or types of oil, the residual old oil may well contaminate/skew the lab results of the latest oil. So, it would be best to keep using the same oil for at least two changes, before sending in used oil for lab testing, so that you get correct results. Some of the oil companies have a product line of excellent oils for modern vehicle applications, which meet all the necessary requirements. And then they have another product line of excellent oils for the High Performance and Racing market, which dictates/desires high zinc levels. However, the Royal Purple guys told me that they don’t actually “need” extra zinc in their High Performance oils, because of their proprietary “Synerlec” additive. And that they consider the extra zinc as only icing on the cake, to meet the market demand. But, some oil companies just produce a product line for modern vehicle applications, which also works well on High Performance vehicles (as my testing has shown with Castrol oils, for example). It all comes down to the business case for producing dual product lines or not, and how it all affects their bottom line. But, as for my motor oil wear testing, all oils get the same fair chance at performing as well as they can. And the outcome for any given oil is determined only by the base oil and its additive package “as a whole”. For an oil to produce outstanding results, it has to be an excellent oil, high zinc or not. The results are the real deal, plain and simple. And on top of that, the tests are repeated to ensure accuracy. So, at the end of the day, for better or worse, like it or not, the numbers simply are what they are. -------------------------- So finally, let’s take a look at the actual “wear test” data of those two Quaker State oils above. Remember, the higher the psi, the better the wear protection. The 10W30 Defy, API SL (semi-synthetic) = 90,226 psi “load carrying capacity/film strength”, at 230*F And the approximate observed temperature at which this oil started to vaporize/smoke, which indicated the onset of thermal breakdown = 260* The 5W30 Ultimate Durability, API SN (full synthetic) = 95,920 psi “load carrying capacity/film strength”, at 230*F, which is 6.3% higher than the Defy’s capability. ----------------------- Now let’s compare the Defy oil to 13 other high zinc oils, which all have between 1100 and 1800 ppm zinc. I’ve also included detergent levels for reference as well. All the oils below are full synthetic unless otherwise specified. The following group of 14 oils are ranked according to their “load carrying capacity/film strength”, or in other words, their “wear protection” performance, at 230*F. The tests were repeated multiple times for each oil, and then those results were averaged to arrive at the final psi numbers shown below. And every single oil was tested EXACTLY THE SAME. 1. 10W30 Valvoline NSL (Not Street Legal) Conventional Racing Oil = 103,846 psi zinc = 1669 ppm total detergent = 1618 ppm detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio = 1.0 NOTE: Due to its very low TBN value, this oil is only suitable for short term racing use, and is not suitable for street use. 2. 10W30 Valvoline VR1 Conventional Racing Oil (silver bottle) = 103,505 psi (.3% below no.1) zinc = 1472 ppm total detergent = 2787 ppm detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio = 1.9 3. 10W30 Valvoline VR1 Synthetic Racing Oil, API SL (black bottle) = 101,139 psi (2.6% below no.1) zinc = 1180 ppm total detergent = 2683 ppm detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio = 1.9 4. 10W30 Amsoil Z-Rod Oil = 95,360 psi (8.2% below no.1) zinc = 1431 ppm total detergent = 2927 ppm detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio =2.0 5. 10W30 Quaker State Defy, API SL (semi-synthetic) = 90,226 psi (13.1% below no.1) zinc = 1221 ppm total detergent = 2830 ppm detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio =2.3 6. 10W30 Joe Gibbs HR4 Hotrod Oil = 86,270 psi (16.9% below no.1) zinc = 1247 ppm total detergent = 3134 ppm detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio = 2.5 7. 5W30 Royal Purple XPR (Extreme Performance Racing) = 74,860 psi (27.9% below no.1) zinc = 1421 ppm total detergent = 3050 ppm detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio = 2.1 8. 15W40 Farm Rated Heavy Duty Performance Diesel, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF/SL, SJ (conventional) = 73,176 psi (29.5% below no.1) zinc = 1325ppm total detergent = 1593 ppm detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio = 1.2 9. 0W30 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1 (semi-synthetic) = 71,377 psi (31.3% below no.1) zinc = 1621 ppm total detergent = 2939 ppm detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio = 1.8 10. 10W30 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1 (semi-synthetic) = 71,206 psi (31.4% below no.1) zinc = 1557 ppm total detergent = 3173 ppm detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio = 2.0 11. 15W50 Mobil 1, API SN = 70,235 psi (32.4% below no.1) zinc = 1133 ppm total detergent = 1437 ppm detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio = 1.3 12. 10W30 Royal Purple HPS (High Performance Street) = 66,211 psi (36.2% below no.1) zinc = 1774 ppm total detergent = 3676 ppm detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio = 2.1 13. 10W40 Valvoline 4 Stroke Motorcycle Oil conventional, API SJ = 65,553 psi (36.9% below no.1) zinc = 1154 ppm total detergent = 1999 ppm detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio =1.1 14. Royal Purple 10W30 Break-In Oil conventional = 62,931 psi (39.4% below no.1) zinc = 1170 ppm total detergent = 3184 ppm detergent ppm/zinc ppm ratio = 2.7 ------------------------------------------ Now, in the interest of full disclosure, let’s compare the new Defy motor oil to “ALL” of the other 47 oils that I have in my database, and see how it ranks against them all. *** The higher the psi result, the higher the “Load carrying capacity/Film strength”, and the better the oil is at preventing wear. *** All oils were tested at 230* F (representative of actual running temperature). *** Multiple tests were performed on each oil, and those results were averaged to arrive at each oil's final value shown below. *** Test Result differences between oils of less than 10%, are not significant, and oils within that range can be considered approximately equivalent. *** All oil bottles were thoroughly shaken before the samples were taken. This ensured that all the additive package components were distributed uniformly throughout all the oil in the bottle, and not settled to the bottom. *** All oils are full synthetic unless otherwise specified. *** All oils are suitable for street use unless otherwise specified. Oil categories: *** Over 90,000 psi = OUTSTANDING protection *** 75,000 to 90,000 psi = GOOD protection *** 60,000 to 75,000 psi = MODEST protection *** Below 60,000 psi = UNDESIREABLE ********** OUTSTANDING PROTECTION ************ 1. 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra, API SM = 115,612 psi I have not been able to find this oil with the latest API SN certification. The bottle says, “No leading synthetic oil provides better wear protection”. For once, a product’s hype turns out to be true. zinc = 806 ppm phos = 812 ppm moly = 66 ppm 2. 10W30 Lucas Racing Only = 106,505 psi zinc = 2642 ppm phos = 3489 ppm moly = 1764 ppm NOTE: This oil is suitable for short term racing use only, and is not suitable for street use. 3. 5W30 Mobil 1, API SN = 105,875 psi zinc = 801 ppm phos = 842 ppm moly = 112 ppm 4. 0W30 Amsoil Signature Series 25,000 miles, API SN = 105,008 psi zinc = 824 ppm phos = 960 ppm moly = 161 ppm ******* 10% below number 1 = 104,051 psi ******** 5. 10W30 Valvoline NSL (Not Street Legal) Conventional Racing Oil = 103,846 psi zinc = 1669 ppm phos = 1518 ppm moly = 784 ppm NOTE: This oil is suitable for short term racing use only, and is not suitable for street use. 6. 5W50 Motorcraft, API SN = 103,517 psi zinc = 606 ppm phos = 742 ppm moly = 28 ppm 7. 10W30 Valvoline VR1 Conventional Racing Oil (silver bottle) = 103,505 psi zinc = 1472 ppm phos = 1544 ppm moly = 3 ppm 8. 10W30 Valvoline VR1 Synthetic Racing Oil, API SL (black bottle) = 101,139 psi zinc = 1180 ppm phos = 1112 ppm moly = 162 ppm 9. 5W30 Chevron Supreme conventional, API SN = 100,011 psi This one only costs $4.29 per quart at the Auto Parts Store where I bought it. zinc = 1018 ppm phos = 728 ppm moly = 161 ppm 10. 5W20 Castrol Edge with Titanium, API SN = 99,983 psi zinc = 1042 ppm phos = 857 ppm moly = 100 ppm titanium = 49 ppm 11. 20W50 Castrol GTX conventional, API SN = 96,514 psi zinc = 610 ppm phos = 754 ppm moly = 94 ppm 12. 30 wt Red Line Race Oil = 96,470 psi zinc = 2207 ppm phos = 2052 ppm moly = 1235 ppm NOTE: This oil is suitable for short term racing use only, and is not suitable for street use. 13. 0W20 Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy, API SN = 96,364 psi zinc = 742 ppm phos = 677 ppm moly = 81 ppm 14. 5W30 Quaker State Ultimate Durability, API SN = 95,920 psi zinc = 877 ppm phos = 921 ppm moly = 72 ppm 15. 5W30 Castrol Edge with Titanium, API SN = 95,717 psi zinc = 818 ppm phos = 883 ppm moly = 90 ppm titanium = 44 ppm 16. 10W30 Joe Gibbs XP3 NASCAR Racing Oil = 95,543 psi zinc = 743 ppm phos = 802 ppm moly = 1125 ppm NOTE: This oil is suitable for short term racing use only, and is not suitable for street use. 17. 5W20 Castrol GTX conventional, API SN = 95,543 psi zinc = TBD phos = TBD moly = TBD NOTE: Oil numbers 16 and 17 were tested weeks apart, but due to the similarities in their wear scar sizes, their averages ended up the same. 18. 5W30 Castrol GTX conventional, API SN = 95,392 psi zinc = 830 ppm phos = 791 ppm moly = 1 ppm 19. 10W30 Amsoil Z-Rod Oil = 95,360 psi zinc = 1431 ppm phos = 1441 ppm moly = 52 ppm 20. 5W30 Valvoline SynPower, API SN = 94,942 psi zinc = 969 ppm phos = 761 ppm moly = 0 ppm 21. 5W30 Valvoline Premium Conventional, API SN = 94,744 psi zinc = TBD phos = TBD moly = TBD 22. 5W20 Mobil 1, API SN = 94,663 psi zinc = 764 ppm phos = 698 ppm moly = 76 ppm 23. 5W20 Valvoline SynPower, API SN = 94,460 psi zinc = 1045 ppm phos = 742 ppm moly = 0 ppm ******** 20% below number 1 = 92,490 psi ******** 24. 5W30 Lucas conventional, API SN = 92,073 psi zinc = 992 ppm phos = 760 ppm moly = 0 ppm 25. 5W30 O'Reilly (house brand) conventional, API SN = 91,433 psi This one only costs $3.99 per quart at the Auto Parts Store where I bought it. zinc = 863 ppm phos = 816 ppm moly = 0 ppm 26. 5W30 Red Line, API SN = 91,028 psi zinc = TBD phos = TBD moly = TBD 27. 5W20 Royal Purple API SN = 90,434 psi zinc = 964 ppm phos = 892 ppm moly = 0 ppm 28. 10W30 Quaker State Defy, API SL (semi-synthetic) = 90,226 psi zinc = 1221 ppm phos = 955 ppm moly = 99 ppm 29. 5W20 Valvoline Premium Conventional, API SN = 90,144 psi zinc = TBD phos = TBD moly = TBD ************ GOOD PROTECTION ********** 30. 30 wt Castrol Heavy Duty conventional, API SM = 88,089 psi zinc = 907 ppm phos = 829 ppm moly = 56 ppm 31. 10W30 Joe Gibbs HR4 Hotrod Oil = 86,270 psi zinc = 1247 ppm phos = 1137 ppm moly = 24 ppm 32. 5W20 Pennzoil Ultra, API SM = 86,034 psi I have not been able to find this oil with the latest API SN certification. zinc = TBD phos = TBD moly = TBD 33. 5W30 Royal Purple API SN = 84,009 psi zinc = 942 ppm phos = 817 ppm moly = 0 ppm 34. 20W50 Royal Purple API SN = 83,487 psi zinc = 588 ppm phos = 697 ppm moly = 0 ppm 35. 20W50 Kendall GT-1 High Performance with liquid titanium, (conventional) API SN = 83,365 psi zinc = 991 ppm phos = 1253 ppm moly = 57 ppm titanium = 84 ppm 36. 5W30 Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15,000 mile, API SN = 83,263 psi zinc = 890 ppm phos = 819 ppm moly = 104 ppm 37. 0W20 Castrol Edge with Titanium, API SN = 82,867 psi zinc = TBD phos = TBD moly = TBD ******** 30% below number 1 = 80,928 psi ******** 38. 5W30 GM's AC Delco dexos 1 (semi-synthetic) API SN = 76,501 psi zinc = 878 ppm phos = 758 ppm moly = 72 ppm **************** MODEST PROTECTION ************ 39. 5W30 Royal Purple XPR (Extreme Performance Racing) = 74,860 psi zinc = 1421 ppm phos = 1338 ppm moly = 204 ppm NOTE: This particular bottle of oil was just opened, but was out of a 3 ½ year old case. 40. 15W40 Farm Rated Heavy Duty Performance Diesel, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF/SL, SJ (conventional) = 73,176 psi zinc = 1325ppm phos = 1234 ppm moly = 2 ppm 41. Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1 Nitro 70 Racing Oil (semi-synthetic) = 72,003 psi zinc = TBD phos = TBD moly = TBD 42. 0W30 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1 (semi-synthetic) = 71,377 psi zinc = 1621 ppm phos = 1437 ppm moly = 0 ppm 43. 10W30 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1 (semi-synthetic) = 71,206 psi zinc = 1557 ppm phos = 1651 ppm moly = 3 ppm 44. 15W50 Mobil 1, API SN = 70,235 psi zinc = 1,133 ppm phos = 1,168 ppm moly = 83 ppm ******** 40% below number 1 = 69,367 psi ******** 45. 5W30 Motorcraft, API SN = 68,782 psi zinc = 796 ppm phos = 830 ppm moly = 75 ppm 46. 10W30 Royal Purple HPS (High Performance Street) = 66,211 psi zinc = 1774 ppm phos = 1347 ppm moly = 189 ppm 47. 10W40 Valvoline 4 Stroke Motorcycle Oil conventional, API SJ = 65,553 psi zinc = 1154 ppm phos = 1075 ppm moly = 0 ppm 48. Royal Purple 10W30 Break-In Oil conventional = 62,931 psi zinc = 1170 ppm phos = 1039 ppm moly = 0 ppm ******** 50% below number 1 = 57,806 psi ******** NOTE: There are no BAD oils here, it’s simply that some oils provide a higher level of reserve protection than others. Even the lowest ranking oil will generally work fine in most applications. But, higher ranked oils do provide a higher “margin of safety” regarding wear prevention. SUMMARY ON THE DEFY MOTOR OIL: So, the new Defy motor oil “wear test” ranking was 5th out of 14 high zinc oils with 1100 to 1800 ppm zinc. And it ranked 28th out of “ALL” the 48 oils I’ve “wear tested” so far. That makes it a mid-pack performer overall, meaning that there are many better oils available, as well as many oils available that are not as good. But, Defy did perform well enough to just make it into the OUTSTAND PROTECTION category, which would make it a perfectly good oil for anyone interested in running an oil with “seal swell” chemicals in it. However, keep in mind that it’s TBN (Total Base Number, an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion) value of 6.5 is somewhat low, so you would never want to think about running this oil for any extended drain intervals. But, if you change it at reasonable intervals, this TBN value won’t be an issue. And the claim about preventing 98% of all future wear, is just smoke and mirrors advertising, nothing more. Its mid-pack ranking does not provide much confidence in supporting that claim, and no end user would ever be able to prove or disprove the claim anyway. So, all indications are that, that claim is about as worthless as that silly “300,000 mile Guarantee” by Valvoline. Inflated hype is nothing new with motor oil, that’s for sure. And that reminds me of the claims on the bottle of the conventional Kendall 20W50 GT-1 High Performance with liquid Titanium, API SN. It says “Racing formula with extra Zinc”, yet Lab Testing showed that it only had 991 ppm zinc. It also said, “Exceptional wear protection”, yet in wear testing, it only ranked 35th out of the 48 oils tested, with only 83,365 psi “load carrying capacity/film strength”. So, you’d be much better served by choosing your motor oil based on something real and measureable, and not by believing advertising/marketing hype, which is seldom ever actually true. As for the $5.29 per quart price of Defy, it is a good value for the money. But, an even better value for the money, is the $4.29 per quart 5W30 Chevron Supreme conventional API SN oil, which ranked 9th out of 48 oils with 100,011 psi “load carrying capacity/film strength”, which is 10.8% higher than the Defy. And the Chevron has an even higher TBN value of 7.5 as well. OVERALL SUMMARY: Just so everyone is clear, I do not sell oil, and I do not get paid by any oil company. So, I have no stake in what oil anyone buys and runs. Everyone can buy whatever they want, for whatever reason they want. It makes no difference to me. But, I’ve always had a keen interest in all aspects of our hobby, just like most everyone else. And I got tired of not really knowing “what is what” regarding motor oil. So, I decided to perform a bunch of independent “Wear Testing” and have a bunch of “Lab Testing” done. That way I could advance my own personal knowledge greatly. And I’ve learned a lot along the way. But, it did require that I keep an open mind, and not stay stuck with what I always “thought” was correct, based on everything I’d read in the past. Because it turns out that a lot of what I’d always thought was correct, was NOT correct at all. What I’ve posted here is not intended to convince anyone of anything. I’m only sharing what I’ve learned from real world testing. That’s it. Folks can embrace the data, or ignore it. That’s up to them. So, there is no reason at all for some folks to get upset. I’m simply providing more data than you’ve had before, which you can take into consideration, if you like, the next time you go to buy motor oil.[u][/u]
 
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David1

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Again, the Cheveron 5W30 has totally amazed me and Looks like Penzoil Ultra is the real deal. Also Quaker State Defy is pretty good for the $, If you never read this before you might be in for a surprise.
 
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Hey David. A simple search would have shown you that this has been posted countless times. The nitty gritty of it is an engine oil and film strength is only a small part of an oils job. And let's consider how much film strength does an engine require based on point loads. If the engine only applies 95000psi of pressure on its pushrods or lash adjusters what gain are you getting using an oil that has more than that. On a pushrod engine with insane spring rates then I suppose this old data may serve some purpose however only a serious engine builder is assembling something like that and today's dohc engines don't see pressures even close to that which makes this entire test irrelevant and really doesn't apply to anything built by an oem today,except perhaps in the most specialized application and I'm sure the oem will recommend exactly what they want used.
 
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
When I want to stop my timken machine from wearing out, I'll be sure to start at the top of the list.
Hehehe. Just keep a little pert plus or head and shoulders close at hand. I've seen then do great on the one armed bandit. David. This testing was done using a one armed bandit trim ken bearing machine. It's absolutely useless for comparing what happens in a ICE and has been posted so often I'd be surprised if you get many more posts thn you already have. Try finding the last 5 threads to read what was said.
 
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I would not judge or select oils based on this old out dated test. There are a lot of flaws with this testing procedure.
 

David1

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Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Shannow
When I want to stop my timken machine from wearing out, I'll be sure to start at the top of the list.
Hehehe. Just keep a little pert plus or head and shoulders close at hand. I've seen then do great on the one armed bandit. David. This testing was done using a one armed bandit trim ken bearing machine. It's absolutely useless for comparing what happens in a ICE and has been posted so often I'd be surprised if you get many more posts thn you already have. Try finding the last 5 threads to read what was said.
I figured it might of been posted but i didnt see it here. Also your saying that test is meaning less? What about that DATA??? amount of ZINC and TBN and additives?
 
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I would not judge or select an oil based on testing. I would use the scientific method and just select the prettiest bottle...Or how their TeeVee commercials make me feel...Or what the old guy down at the pub tells me. Keep in mind, the Pennzoil Ultra that was tested was SM. I question the accuracy of the tests because Mobil 1 0w30 has a much lower PSI value than the 0w20 and they are basically the same chemistry. I am surprised Mobil 1 0w40 is so far down the list.
 
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15,538
Location
N.H, U.S.A.
Let some one set up a DATSUN OHC SUB cam wear test and compare oils that way. Not too costly smile The wear parts loaded in the one arm bandit don't reflect properly designed lubed and Seems to me plain and hydrodyn lubed bearing are shot before anything else and that is by "design" of the soft inserts that have calculated service life.
 
Messages
28,129
Location
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: David1
What about that DATA??? amount of ZINC and TBN and additives?
Assuming their values are correct (and I don't), all that tells you are levels of TBN and elemental additives. That has some use, but an awful lot of typing went into this "study" for its only value to be TBN and zinc, and I'd consider it a poor resource for that. Of course, we do have to be cautious, even if those values were correct and one didn't have to wade through paragraph upon paragraph of nonsense to get to them. A high TBN oil doesn't mean it retains that TBN well, nor does it really mean much if you do short OCIs. Zinc level says nothing about the quality of an oil, unless something is totally amiss - i.e. don't be using a dedicated race oil in your daily driver. Oils are a package, and while it is nice to know a few things about a specific oil, these "few things" only tell us so much.
 
Messages
1,338
Location
Sarasota, Florida
SAE certification is based on very expensive, actual engine wear tests. These engines are run at full load and wide open throttle. Wear is then measured on various parts among other tests. There are a host of other tests as the above and the 4-ball test that have not been shown to predict in vivo engine conditions nor test results for wear. One of the "bottom dwellers" in this test above is Mortorcraft. This has consistently shown excellent wear testing in used oil analysis. I will be putting it in my wife Lamborghini next week. aehaas
 
Messages
6,201
Location
KY
Originally Posted By: Shannow
When I want to stop my timken machine from wearing out, I'll be sure to start at the top of the list.
crackmeup approved
 
Messages
2,327
Location
1/4 Mile Track
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Whooo-hooo! Valvoline VR1 10w30 comes in second! My lawn mower is well protected.
Valvoline VR1 is used ALOT in drag race applications from state to state,it's an awsome oil all around.
 
Messages
8,033
Location
Michigan
All that testing to prove or disprove the effectiveness of ZDDP on the wear protection capability of motor oils, and he never realized that Phosphorous is the element that is proportional to zddp content. Zinc can be in other additives. <sigh>
 
Messages
221
Location
IL
Originally Posted By: Lex94
I would not judge or select an oil based on testing. I would use the scientific method and just select the prettiest bottle...Or how their TeeVee commercials make me feel...Or what the old guy down at the pub tells me. Keep in mind, the Pennzoil Ultra that was tested was SM. I question the accuracy of the tests because Mobil 1 0w30 has a much lower PSI value than the 0w20 and they are basically the same chemistry. I am surprised Mobil 1 0w40 is so far down the list.
What is SM?
 
Messages
1,429
Location
quebec canada
Wow @ valvoline premium conventional !isnt this a non -synthetic oil.it still managed to be in the outstanding .having seen uoa of this oil.it might not be for extended drain but in normal use ?its a top dino oil.you have to remember this oil doesnt have moly etc. I think i ll give this a try .
 
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