Premature aftermarket timing chain failure
- Thread starter chipdipjones
- Start date
Originally Posted by IMSA_Racing_Fan
Originally Posted by Cujet
Timing chains last longest with 30 viscosity oil.
Why of course but the thin oil fanatics just don't care.
Uber thin oil is fantastic for many purposes. But when diluted with 2% fuel, loaded with plenty of evaporated fuel by products and a substantial level of particulates, and operated at excessively hot temperatures, we really can't expect long chain life.
As with everything, an engine designed for low viscosity oils and longevity in mind will hold up just fine. However, the rash of Ford, GM and Hyundai/Kia chain failures is absolutely due to low viscosity coupled with long drain intervals.
Originally Posted by Cujet
Timing chains last longest with 30 viscosity oil.
Why of course but the thin oil fanatics just don't care.
Uber thin oil is fantastic for many purposes. But when diluted with 2% fuel, loaded with plenty of evaporated fuel by products and a substantial level of particulates, and operated at excessively hot temperatures, we really can't expect long chain life.
As with everything, an engine designed for low viscosity oils and longevity in mind will hold up just fine. However, the rash of Ford, GM and Hyundai/Kia chain failures is absolutely due to low viscosity coupled with long drain intervals.
Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Originally Posted by Cujet
NOTE: Timing chains last longest with 30 viscosity oil. As mentioned above, chains don't have bearing surfaces. They rely on viscosity to reduce wear. Also, it's very important to keep oil clean, as any particulates increase a chain's wear rates.
This cannot be stated or emphasized enough- this is the true "root" of almost all chain failures.
In reality all these chain "brushes" sprays and all that are almost functionally worthless in terms of chain life because the exterior of the chain isn't wearing and the contact with the sprocket results mainly in failure due to fatigue induced by work hardening and impingement contact based on the chain load/tension distorting the contact profile. ( no lubricant can overcome those effects)
There is a very tight gap between the link and roller and an even tighter tolerance covering the entire pin length.
In most cases, both splash and immersion lube systems fail to adequately lubricate the pin surface because there isn't enough suspension time for the necessary viscosity lubricant to work its way through and get where it needs to get. ( and most of it slings off anyway)
When you run a profile meter, finish gauge and air gap measure roundness- you can clearly see it and the result of under lubrication but to the naked eye its virtually invisible.
Running thinner lubricants will get in better but then it depends on the load as to what benefit you get
Sounds like soaking the new timing chain over night in a pan of new oil before installation would be a good way to go to ensure oil gets everyplace it needs to be.
Originally Posted by Cujet
NOTE: Timing chains last longest with 30 viscosity oil. As mentioned above, chains don't have bearing surfaces. They rely on viscosity to reduce wear. Also, it's very important to keep oil clean, as any particulates increase a chain's wear rates.
This cannot be stated or emphasized enough- this is the true "root" of almost all chain failures.
In reality all these chain "brushes" sprays and all that are almost functionally worthless in terms of chain life because the exterior of the chain isn't wearing and the contact with the sprocket results mainly in failure due to fatigue induced by work hardening and impingement contact based on the chain load/tension distorting the contact profile. ( no lubricant can overcome those effects)
There is a very tight gap between the link and roller and an even tighter tolerance covering the entire pin length.
In most cases, both splash and immersion lube systems fail to adequately lubricate the pin surface because there isn't enough suspension time for the necessary viscosity lubricant to work its way through and get where it needs to get. ( and most of it slings off anyway)
When you run a profile meter, finish gauge and air gap measure roundness- you can clearly see it and the result of under lubrication but to the naked eye its virtually invisible.
Running thinner lubricants will get in better but then it depends on the load as to what benefit you get
Sounds like soaking the new timing chain over night in a pan of new oil before installation would be a good way to go to ensure oil gets everyplace it needs to be.
Originally Posted by Cujet
Originally Posted by IMSA_Racing_Fan
Originally Posted by Cujet
Timing chains last longest with 30 viscosity oil.
Why of course but the thin oil fanatics just don't care.
Uber thin oil is fantastic for many purposes. But when diluted with 2% fuel, loaded with plenty of evaporated fuel by products and a substantial level of particulates, and operated at excessively hot temperatures, we really can't expect long chain life.
As with everything, an engine designed for low viscosity oils and longevity in mind will hold up just fine. However, the rash of Ford, GM and Hyundai/Kia chain failures is absolutely due to low viscosity coupled with long drain intervals.
Please show the evidence you have to support this claim.
Originally Posted by IMSA_Racing_Fan
Originally Posted by Cujet
Timing chains last longest with 30 viscosity oil.
Why of course but the thin oil fanatics just don't care.
Uber thin oil is fantastic for many purposes. But when diluted with 2% fuel, loaded with plenty of evaporated fuel by products and a substantial level of particulates, and operated at excessively hot temperatures, we really can't expect long chain life.
As with everything, an engine designed for low viscosity oils and longevity in mind will hold up just fine. However, the rash of Ford, GM and Hyundai/Kia chain failures is absolutely due to low viscosity coupled with long drain intervals.
Please show the evidence you have to support this claim.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Sounds like soaking the new timing chain over night in a pan of new oil before installation would be a good way to go to ensure oil gets everyplace it needs to be.
No one has ever demonstrated to me ( and proven) anything superior on chains in general as far as pin lubrication goes
However (especially for open running chains) it brings its own set of issues. Its time consuming, expensive on long chains, normally messy and environmentally unfriendly at times and is a dirt magnet.
Lastly, that's only good for the initial charge- that initial coating is quickly worked out
Sounds like soaking the new timing chain over night in a pan of new oil before installation would be a good way to go to ensure oil gets everyplace it needs to be.
No one has ever demonstrated to me ( and proven) anything superior on chains in general as far as pin lubrication goes
However (especially for open running chains) it brings its own set of issues. Its time consuming, expensive on long chains, normally messy and environmentally unfriendly at times and is a dirt magnet.
Lastly, that's only good for the initial charge- that initial coating is quickly worked out
Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Sounds like soaking the new timing chain over night in a pan of new oil before installation would be a good way to go to ensure oil gets everyplace it needs to be.
No one has ever demonstrated to me ( and proven) anything superior on chains in general as far as pin lubrication goes
However (especially for open running chains) it brings its own set of issues. Its time consuming, expensive on long chains, normally messy and environmentally unfriendly at times and is a dirt magnet.
Lastly, that's only good for the initial charge- that initial coating is quickly worked out
I'm only taking about open chains (not O-ring chains like on motorcycles), but open chains as those used as timing chains in OHV engines that are lubricated by engine oil.
I would question the level of lubrication of a new chain in the box. On motorcycles I've rebuilt, I've always soaked the cam chain in motor oil over night before installing the chain. Good initial lubrication could certainly cut down on some initial wear before the lubrication system takes over. It's certainly not going to hurt to pre-soak a new timing chain, regardless of the hassle.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Sounds like soaking the new timing chain over night in a pan of new oil before installation would be a good way to go to ensure oil gets everyplace it needs to be.
No one has ever demonstrated to me ( and proven) anything superior on chains in general as far as pin lubrication goes
However (especially for open running chains) it brings its own set of issues. Its time consuming, expensive on long chains, normally messy and environmentally unfriendly at times and is a dirt magnet.
Lastly, that's only good for the initial charge- that initial coating is quickly worked out
I'm only taking about open chains (not O-ring chains like on motorcycles), but open chains as those used as timing chains in OHV engines that are lubricated by engine oil.
I would question the level of lubrication of a new chain in the box. On motorcycles I've rebuilt, I've always soaked the cam chain in motor oil over night before installing the chain. Good initial lubrication could certainly cut down on some initial wear before the lubrication system takes over. It's certainly not going to hurt to pre-soak a new timing chain, regardless of the hassle.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
I would question the level of lubrication of a new chain in the box. On motorcycles I've rebuilt, I've always soaked the cam chain in motor oil over night before installing the chain. Good initial lubrication could certainly cut down on some initial wear before the lubrication system takes over. It's certainly not going to hurt to pre-soak a new timing chain, regardless of the hassle.
I have to tread carefully to not violate a confidentiality agreement but I have toured and certified 2 chain manufacturers on bulk chain and both of them use about a hot 000 grease with high viscosity oil heated and let it soak in a vat while rolling from one drum to the other then lift and cool. (on the industrial chains)
Personally I think that's about the best that can be done short of a true O ring chain.
Hard to duplicate in the field too.
I would question the level of lubrication of a new chain in the box. On motorcycles I've rebuilt, I've always soaked the cam chain in motor oil over night before installing the chain. Good initial lubrication could certainly cut down on some initial wear before the lubrication system takes over. It's certainly not going to hurt to pre-soak a new timing chain, regardless of the hassle.
I have to tread carefully to not violate a confidentiality agreement but I have toured and certified 2 chain manufacturers on bulk chain and both of them use about a hot 000 grease with high viscosity oil heated and let it soak in a vat while rolling from one drum to the other then lift and cool. (on the industrial chains)
Personally I think that's about the best that can be done short of a true O ring chain.
Hard to duplicate in the field too.
Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
I would question the level of lubrication of a new chain in the box. On motorcycles I've rebuilt, I've always soaked the cam chain in motor oil over night before installing the chain. Good initial lubrication could certainly cut down on some initial wear before the lubrication system takes over. It's certainly not going to hurt to pre-soak a new timing chain, regardless of the hassle.
I have to tread carefully to not violate a confidentiality agreement but I have toured and certified 2 chain manufacturers on bulk chain and both of them use about a hot 000 grease with high viscosity oil heated and let it soak in a vat while rolling from one drum to the other then lift and cool. (on the industrial chains)
Personally I think that's about the best that can be done short of a true O ring chain.
Hard to duplicate in the field too.
Nobody uses an O-ring chain for engine internal timing chains that I know of. In fact, a lot of internal timing chains are not even roller chains, but rather multi-link design. I know my Tacoma V6 uses an open roller chain, but I've seen lots of engines that use multi-link timing chains.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
I would question the level of lubrication of a new chain in the box. On motorcycles I've rebuilt, I've always soaked the cam chain in motor oil over night before installing the chain. Good initial lubrication could certainly cut down on some initial wear before the lubrication system takes over. It's certainly not going to hurt to pre-soak a new timing chain, regardless of the hassle.
I have to tread carefully to not violate a confidentiality agreement but I have toured and certified 2 chain manufacturers on bulk chain and both of them use about a hot 000 grease with high viscosity oil heated and let it soak in a vat while rolling from one drum to the other then lift and cool. (on the industrial chains)
Personally I think that's about the best that can be done short of a true O ring chain.
Hard to duplicate in the field too.
Nobody uses an O-ring chain for engine internal timing chains that I know of. In fact, a lot of internal timing chains are not even roller chains, but rather multi-link design. I know my Tacoma V6 uses an open roller chain, but I've seen lots of engines that use multi-link timing chains.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Nobody uses an O-ring chain for engine internal timing chains that I know of.
On a vehicle probably not (never heard of one in that configuration either) but they are used frequently for timing machine functions because they tend to hold tolerance longer which is basically the same function in a different machine. Some are open, some are closed. The chain doesn't care.
Nobody uses an O-ring chain for engine internal timing chains that I know of.
On a vehicle probably not (never heard of one in that configuration either) but they are used frequently for timing machine functions because they tend to hold tolerance longer which is basically the same function in a different machine. Some are open, some are closed. The chain doesn't care.
Originally Posted by Jarlaxle
Originally Posted by Cujet
Originally Posted by IMSA_Racing_Fan
Originally Posted by Cujet
Timing chains last longest with 30 viscosity oil.
Why of course but the thin oil fanatics just don't care.
Uber thin oil is fantastic for many purposes. But when diluted with 2% fuel, loaded with plenty of evaporated fuel by products and a substantial level of particulates, and operated at excessively hot temperatures, we really can't expect long chain life.
As with everything, an engine designed for low viscosity oils and longevity in mind will hold up just fine. However, the rash of Ford, GM and Hyundai/Kia chain failures is absolutely due to low viscosity coupled with long drain intervals.
Please show the evidence you have to support this claim.
I've done so many times. I probably should save the study links to answer the constant calls for proof.
Originally Posted by Cujet
Originally Posted by IMSA_Racing_Fan
Originally Posted by Cujet
Timing chains last longest with 30 viscosity oil.
Why of course but the thin oil fanatics just don't care.
Uber thin oil is fantastic for many purposes. But when diluted with 2% fuel, loaded with plenty of evaporated fuel by products and a substantial level of particulates, and operated at excessively hot temperatures, we really can't expect long chain life.
As with everything, an engine designed for low viscosity oils and longevity in mind will hold up just fine. However, the rash of Ford, GM and Hyundai/Kia chain failures is absolutely due to low viscosity coupled with long drain intervals.
Please show the evidence you have to support this claim.
I've done so many times. I probably should save the study links to answer the constant calls for proof.
Originally Posted by Jarlaxle
This might sound stupid, but: are you sure it was the correct chain? It sounds almost like it was just a bit too long.
The mechanic didn't have the packaging anymore but as far as we know it was correct. It certainly wasn't that loose when he installed it.
This might sound stupid, but: are you sure it was the correct chain? It sounds almost like it was just a bit too long.
The mechanic didn't have the packaging anymore but as far as we know it was correct. It certainly wasn't that loose when he installed it.
Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Originally Posted by chipdipjones
Is there anything else that would cause this failure besides bad luck and a faulty or low quality chain? I just don't want to have to do this again for a third time. I know there are not many parts that contact or would stretch a chain and we already replaced most of them. Even if the part was aftermarket, it seems almost unbelievable to fail nearly immediately. Even the mechanic said he wouldn't of believed it if he wasn't looking right at it.
Thanks in advance
I'll tell you exactly what most likely happened because I do a great deal with engineering level failure analysis on chain systems for pulp/paper, mining and others. This is more common than most people realize and almost impossible to detect and predict at the user level.
Theres more than 1 failure mode and mechanism for a chain and sprocket failure so for the purpose of this comment- I assume it was the "right" combo for your application and the mechanic in question properly installed/tensioned/aligned it and your lubrication system was operating properly.
Here's what happens during chain and sprocket manufacturing.
Chains to NOT stretch- the pins and rollers wear thus "opening them up" giving the illusion of stretch.
These pins and rollers are made in machines literally by the millions at the time and frequently have batches that suffer during the heat treat section because of various things such as running speed, holdover, depleted oils, temperature problems and so forth.
There is very little legitimate QA/QC "over there" ( been there and seen it in person) so they get installed.
I have verified this many times in paper and mining with a Rockwell tester and tracing quality back through ISO systems on high dollar failures.
You can get a soft sprocket too but that's less likely.
Without doing the actual analysis, I can almost bet money that's what happened in your case. It has all the textbook ear marks.
This was our guess too, just poor quality. I know that chains do not "stretch" but that it is tiny bits of wear off each link of chain. "Stretch" was just the easiest description I guess. There was a bit of metallic sheen in the oil so that was coming from somewhere as the oil was changed during all the repairs. We did not replace sprockets, they were the original OEM Honda sprockets, we only did guides, chain and tensioner.
Originally Posted by chipdipjones
Is there anything else that would cause this failure besides bad luck and a faulty or low quality chain? I just don't want to have to do this again for a third time. I know there are not many parts that contact or would stretch a chain and we already replaced most of them. Even if the part was aftermarket, it seems almost unbelievable to fail nearly immediately. Even the mechanic said he wouldn't of believed it if he wasn't looking right at it.
Thanks in advance
I'll tell you exactly what most likely happened because I do a great deal with engineering level failure analysis on chain systems for pulp/paper, mining and others. This is more common than most people realize and almost impossible to detect and predict at the user level.
Theres more than 1 failure mode and mechanism for a chain and sprocket failure so for the purpose of this comment- I assume it was the "right" combo for your application and the mechanic in question properly installed/tensioned/aligned it and your lubrication system was operating properly.
Here's what happens during chain and sprocket manufacturing.
Chains to NOT stretch- the pins and rollers wear thus "opening them up" giving the illusion of stretch.
These pins and rollers are made in machines literally by the millions at the time and frequently have batches that suffer during the heat treat section because of various things such as running speed, holdover, depleted oils, temperature problems and so forth.
There is very little legitimate QA/QC "over there" ( been there and seen it in person) so they get installed.
I have verified this many times in paper and mining with a Rockwell tester and tracing quality back through ISO systems on high dollar failures.
You can get a soft sprocket too but that's less likely.
Without doing the actual analysis, I can almost bet money that's what happened in your case. It has all the textbook ear marks.
This was our guess too, just poor quality. I know that chains do not "stretch" but that it is tiny bits of wear off each link of chain. "Stretch" was just the easiest description I guess. There was a bit of metallic sheen in the oil so that was coming from somewhere as the oil was changed during all the repairs. We did not replace sprockets, they were the original OEM Honda sprockets, we only did guides, chain and tensioner.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Was there any kind of warranty (from RockAuto or the manufacturer) on this timing chain?
Only a replacement of the same item via the warranty from ITM, which we declined for obvious reasons. I have emailed ITM, perhaps I will hear from them this week.
Was there any kind of warranty (from RockAuto or the manufacturer) on this timing chain?
Only a replacement of the same item via the warranty from ITM, which we declined for obvious reasons. I have emailed ITM, perhaps I will hear from them this week.
I have a question related to this topic. It seems that frequently it is the chain guides that fail. Under what conditions do timing chains make actual contact with the chain guides? Always, only under certain conditions, like at high rpm and little load or when? Or does it happen only once the chain tensioners go bad?
Originally Posted by vavavroom
I have a question related to this topic. It seems that frequently it is the chain guides that fail. Under what conditions do timing chains make actual contact with the chain guides? Always, only under certain conditions, like at high rpm and little load or when? Or does it happen only once the chain tensioners go bad?
Timing chains are always in contact with the tensioner(s) and guides. On modern OHV engines with a timing chain, there's a tensioner that keeps the chain at the correct tension, and the chain is always contacting that tensioner, and also contacting any other fixed guides in the system. On some older motorcycles, the tensioner is actually a small sprocket, but typically the tensioner is some kind of slider design made of tough nylon material or similar.
It's not unusual for the material on a guide or tensioner to wear out over time from the constant chain contact and wear down to the metal backing plate. Lot's of Nissan V6 engines had that problem, and when the chain chewed through the nylon (around 70k~80K) and started chewing the metal back plate you'd know it from the crazy noises it would make.
I have a question related to this topic. It seems that frequently it is the chain guides that fail. Under what conditions do timing chains make actual contact with the chain guides? Always, only under certain conditions, like at high rpm and little load or when? Or does it happen only once the chain tensioners go bad?
Timing chains are always in contact with the tensioner(s) and guides. On modern OHV engines with a timing chain, there's a tensioner that keeps the chain at the correct tension, and the chain is always contacting that tensioner, and also contacting any other fixed guides in the system. On some older motorcycles, the tensioner is actually a small sprocket, but typically the tensioner is some kind of slider design made of tough nylon material or similar.
It's not unusual for the material on a guide or tensioner to wear out over time from the constant chain contact and wear down to the metal backing plate. Lot's of Nissan V6 engines had that problem, and when the chain chewed through the nylon (around 70k~80K) and started chewing the metal back plate you'd know it from the crazy noises it would make.
I did find out from ITM auto that the parts were made in Taiwan. They asked for specifics about my model of car but said they haven't heard of any other issues (of course).
Originally Posted by chipdipjones
I did find out from ITM auto that the parts were made in Taiwan. They asked for specifics about my model of car but said they haven't heard of any other issues (of course).
Typically, stuff from Taiwan is better than China.
I did find out from ITM auto that the parts were made in Taiwan. They asked for specifics about my model of car but said they haven't heard of any other issues (of course).
Typically, stuff from Taiwan is better than China.
