2017 Civic 2.0 NA, Timing Chain Fail @ 70K Miles

[dogememe]

Initial problem was car would stall sometimes and then be difficult to restart. You’d have to give it gas and crank it for a while but eventually it would work. Very intermittent problem.

Scanning the car resulted in a P0341 as a pending code but except for the occasional issue, ran and drove fine.

Trying to get it to smog so we erased the codes hoping it would pass the monitors before the pending code came back. This was a mistake, at this point the car ran so poorly it was undriveable.

We tried to change the cam sensor A (with an aftermarket one). Sadly no change so we put the original back in and towed to dealer.

They’re saying the timing chain has stretched and it’s $2000 to fix it.

Coworker will go ahead with the repair. They like the car, and it gets good fuel economy. Except for some AC work that was done under warranty, it’s been good otherwise.

But we’re wondering if this is typical for this engine, is it a common problem, or just bad maintenance? Oil changes were not always done on time, to be honest. But I’d expect a naturally aspirated, port injected engine would make it further than 70K miles, even with the occasional delayed oil change?

 

[ctechbob]

Could just be a random thing, or they abused it a whole lot more than they're letting on. You usually have to be pretty mean to a Honda with a timing chain to have those kinds of issues.

Or, just the luck of the draw and a crap part. As many engines as Honda builds, there's bound to be a few that crap out early.

 

[The Critic]

It's a GDI engine - they're not kind to poor oil change habits, even if it's a NA motor.

 

[charbaby]

The Civic’s 2.0L NA is not a GDI, it’s port injection. We have the same K-20 in the 2022 Civic LX in my signature.
However, HONDA’s recommended 10,000 mile OCI is for the birds even with the K-Series engines. If this engine OCI’s were 10K miles or beyond, I suppose this could happen even though I expect better from HONDA.
I’m wondering if the engine just jumped timing for whatever reason.

 

[TomYoung]

This is a bummer, but would put it down to random bad luck getting a faulty timing chain component. The $2,000 repair price seems reasonable to me, and bet that this awesome k series engine, will deliver many more miles of service.

 

[rstsco]

Not an apples to apples comparison, but Car Wizard posted this yesterday, and discusses timing chains stretching, not just on Hondas. It appears he may have rather some strong opinions, especially when it comes to bean counters. Details start at 5:00. Skipped a tooth because of stretch at 8:15. Opinion on current timing chains at 14:45. Explanation of why they're stretching at 15:50.

He talks about why you don't want to just change a defective part, but need to replace all the timing chain components if you want it to last. He said it's a $2500-$3000 job now due to increased cost of parts.

 

[Donald]

It's unfortunate the timing chain path on some modern engines is complex.

The timing chain path on my 1965 Mustang 289 was simple and the chain heavy duty. No one talked about timing chain problems back then.

 

[rstsco]

The timing chain path on my 1965 Mustang 289 was simple and the chain heavy duty. No one talked about timing chain problems back then.

In the video, Car Wizard points to the Mustang behind him saying the same thing.

 

[KrisZ]

If it had 10k mile changes or beyond, that’s the likely culprit.
Short OCIs is still a prudent thing to do, despite the proliferation of synthetic oils.

 

[JavierH19]

The Civic’s 2.0L NA is not a GDI, it’s port injection. We have the same K-20 in the 2022 Civic LX in my signature.
However, HONDA’s recommended 10,000 mile OCI is for the birds even with the K-Series engines. If this engine OCI’s were 10K miles or beyond, I suppose this could happen even though I expect better from HONDA.
I’m wondering if the engine just jumped timing for whatever reason.

In the recent 2.0 revision which i think was in 2023 they added gdi to the 2.0 which stinks. Older ones are not gdi which is nice.

 

[JavierH19]

I have to agree with the rest. They had bad luck on the parts which were most likely defective.

 

[joekingcorvette]

That's more than a good used salvage yard complete engine would cost. Probably worth repairing instead of replacing but it's up to the owner to decide which would be best. Granted installation would cost some money however good used Honda engines are fairly inexpensive.

 

[Patman]

It’s not typical for this engine, I have this engine in my 2016 Civic. It’s got 182k on it. In the Civic groups that I follow I have not heard of any timing chain failures at all.

 

[Patman]

If it had 10k mile changes or beyond, that’s the likely culprit.
Short OCIs is still a prudent thing to do, despite the proliferation of synthetic oils.

If that was the case then my timing chain would have failed because my Civic has had mostly 9-10k changes its whole life. And for the first 80k before I got it, it was dealership bulk oil.

 

[nascarnation]

It's unfortunate the timing chain path on some modern engines is complex.

The timing chain path on my 1965 Mustang 289 was simple and the chain heavy duty. No one talked about timing chain problems back then.

Chevy small blocks had a nylon coated aluminum cam sprocket in the early 70s. The chain didn't fail but the sprocket wore out. I had a couple that went around 50,000 miles. They got so noisy you had plenty of warning to change it before it jumped time. Back then it was pretty easy to access the timing cover and change it.

 

[Hohn]

It’s not typical for this engine, I have this engine in my 2016 Civic. It’s got 182k on it. In the Civic groups that I follow I have not heard of any timing chain failures at all.

This "stretch" failure to me points towards potential cam phaser issues or something that spikes chain tension and drives chain tension to excess. In other words, true chain "stretch" instead of wear, which is what most people are actually calling stretch.

Chains wear and get longer as they do. This is elongation, but it's not "Stretch" per se because there's no yielding occurring. Everyone knows what we mean when we say "stretch", but it's not quite representative of the physics and dynamics.


This is one advantage of using multiple short chains instead of the modern trends towards massively long chains. One hugely long chain is just much cheaper than using pony chains and additional sprockets and such.

Large industrial engines are, of course, 100% gear and use no chains anywhere. Gears are the only drive that can hold up to 20k+ hours of high load operation and shrug it off. But they are no-go in small passcar engines because of 1) cost, and 2) noise, and 3) packaging. Gears take up more space.

This summer did the timing belt on my old Odyssey for the 2nd time. I'll probably never have to do it again. I think the hatred of timing belts is entirely misguided and cumulative experience with miles-long-chains since the industry basically swore off timing belts will cause us to come full circle and appreciate the virtues of the timing belt and a protected dry drive. Short stubby chains and/or direct gears with long timing belts are a winning combination.

And if you can design a belt setup that can be replaced in 2-3 hours every 100k miles, that's a fantastic option. A reasonably affordable maintenance item beats a costly reactive ticking time bomb every time.

Honestly, the timing belt on a Honda J35 is pretty straightforward if it wasn't for the engine mount hassle.

 

[SC Maintenance]

I would be interested @dogememe if the chain stretched or the guides wore? Nissan had timing chain problems when the individual links were stamped from dies too long and not properly checked resulting in burrs on the links which prematurely wore out the guides.

I always was under the belief the primary reason to move to chains was more complex valvetrain geometries, not maintenance? Perhaps both?

 

[KrisZ]

If that was the case then my timing chain would have failed because my Civic has had mostly 9-10k changes its whole life. And for the first 80k before I got it, it was dealership bulk oil.

How it’s been driven also matters. Your 16 got 180k miles and this 17 has 70k miles, so most likely lots of short trips.

 

[IndyIan]

I would bet on the VCT actuator failing over the dead simple timing chain arrangement failing, even if the engine has had 10k+ OCI's.
Can you check the tension from the top? with just valve cover off?
Anyways, replacing VCT actuator seems relatively simple. I would try that if I'm not hearing the chain flapping around loose due to a failed or fully extended tensioner.

 

[Patman]

How it’s been driven also matters. Your 16 got 180k miles and this 17 has 70k miles, so most likely lots of short trips.

But there are a lot of these engines out there that get 8 to 10k intervals and many of them are doing short trips too. If that was the problem I would be hearing about a lot of timing chain issues and I’m not