Portrait Of A Broken Automotive Industry

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I haven’t checked out my local inventory online for months and went and looked a few local Honda dealers sites. They all had inventory now and all their cars were marked down $1500 below MSRP. I was surprised by this but still don’t know what ADM packages they still have on every car that’s not showing online. I checked a few Hyundai dealers and they were selling at MSRP for the ICE cars but still had a $5K mark up on the Hybrids. I think the ball is finally back on our side of the court going forward.
 
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To me he is complaining about the world that he is not comfortable to live in. It happens to many people. “Good ole days,” and similar nonsense.
The real problem when he talks about pricing are not vehicles but wages that didn’t keep up with it.
Car industry will be fine. It will evolve and while you might feel uncomfortable about it, your kids or grandkids will take your hand and lead you through that world.
 

harbor

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Agree with edyvw’s take.
Savage Geese’s rant is uniformed and neglects to mention that Covid‘s impact is still being felt in autos, food, housing, etc. Remember when drywall was priced out of reach a couple years ago? However, things are starting to normalize as the supply chain normalizes and prices drop accordingly.
The dealership image programs that he critiques have been going on for a long time and are in-line with other industry facility branding programs like Home Depot, McDonalds & Marriott. OEMs also contribute to these voluntary programs.
Dealership buy/sell activity is at record dollar levels indicating that the auto industry is alive and well going forward.
 
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The auto industry is going to be nothing but the same 5 or 6 basic shapes of hybrid and electric appliances that are not even close to being affordable. All modern designs will be bland and soulless save for a few niche cars. The real drivers of the world will keep their gas powered chariots no matter what. V8 only is the way for me moving forward. I do not trust or put faith in electric.
 
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I haven’t checked out my local inventory online for months and went and looked a few local Honda dealers sites. They all had inventory now and all their cars were marked down $1500 below MSRP. I was surprised by this but still don’t know what ADM packages they still have on every car that’s not showing online. I checked a few Hyundai dealers and they were selling at MSRP for the ICE cars but still had a $5K mark up on the Hybrids. I think the ball is finally back on our side of the court going forward.
High interest rates and a foggy economic outlook have swung the market this way. The bubble in the car market was to take advantage of the low interest rates as a last chance, and for the higher end cars was to park the rapidly deflating dollars into tangible appreciating assets.
 

Pew

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High interest rates and a foggy economic outlook have swung the market this way. The bubble in the car market was to take advantage of the low interest rates as a last chance, and for the higher end cars was to park the rapidly deflating dollars into tangible appreciating assets.

If I would have been able to wait a year before purchasing last Nov I would have saved over $6000 for a 2-year old CX5. I almost want to shoot myself in the foot for this but beggars can't be choosers in this market :(
 
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I haven’t checked out my local inventory online for months and went and looked a few local Honda dealers sites. They all had inventory now and all their cars were marked down $1500 below MSRP. I was surprised by this but still don’t know what ADM packages they still have on every car that’s not showing online. I checked a few Hyundai dealers and they were selling at MSRP for the ICE cars but still had a $5K mark up on the Hybrids. I think the ball is finally back on our side of the court going forward.
Around here they all show inventory online but its either in transit and sold when it gets here, or it has already been sold they just leave it in the system to get people in. However I have no doubt that will change soon. I can't see people lining up to pay 6% interest on a 40K Camry. I realize many people have no choice if there car gets wrecked or something - hope I don't end up there.
 

GON

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If you read the manifesto that is the plan, cars will be for the politburo, cronies, hangers on and oligarchs. Don't think for one second this EV crap is about the environment it is all about unhorsing the unwashed masses.
Norway, the country that will ban internal combustion engines powering private vehicles by 2025, and may be 100 percent electric car sales exclusive in the next few months, announced yesterday they will disable electric vehicle charging as beneficial to support the power grid for other electric needs.
 
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Norway, the country that will ban internal combustion engines powering private vehicles by 2025, and may be 100 percent electric car sales exclusive in the next few months, announced yesterday they will disable electric vehicle charging as beneficial to support the power grid for other electric needs.


This does not surprise me. The agenda is more important than a stable society. More of the cart before the horse thinking.
 
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This will be our future not too far from now:

View attachment 128648
Yep, and that is the goal.

I think the biggest problem with EVs/current automotive trends is affordability. Not just with the cars themselves, but with everything else piled on. Current wages for the average person are not keeping up with the crazy inflated prices of everything. There is a small percentage of well-off people (usually older and established) buying cars with cash or with good financing, the rest are just loading up on debt. Younger people are starting to realize that tying up that much money in debt in a depreciating asset (which depreciates even quicker with all the tech) is a dumb idea. I could go out and buy a new BMW tomorrow, but dropping that much on a car that doesn't "wow" me much more than my current 2009 model doesn't interest me.
 
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Yep, and that is the goal.

I think the biggest problem with EVs/current automotive trends is affordability. Not just with the cars themselves, but with everything else piled on. Current wages for the average person are not keeping up with the crazy inflated prices of everything. There is a small percentage of well-off people (usually older and established) buying cars with cash or with good financing, the rest are just loading up on debt. Younger people are starting to realize that tying up that much money in debt in a depreciating asset (which depreciates even quicker with all the tech) is a dumb idea. I could go out and buy a new BMW tomorrow, but dropping that much on a car that doesn't "wow" me much more than my current 2009 model doesn't interest me.
Tesla stock would not be as high as it is without the "Myth of Elon". The irony is that this fact is stated black on white in their SEC filings.

EVs in their current form are a terrible idea.

Self driving will never work... unless they can create a sentient AI that is capable of critical thinking, critical decision making, emotional intelligence, and empathy. Oh wait, that'd be a human being... Never mind. Seriously though, navigating traffic conditions is difficult, and it involves more than binary decision making. They'll never get it to work the way they'd like us to believe. Plus, it's an extra effort & expense we don't need. As it is, it's highly unsafe. The disturbing thing is that Elon is allowed to Beta Test this software in customer's vehicles, on public roads.
 
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Modern cars irritate me. They represent three aspects of modernity that I consider detestable. 1. Government overreach, 2. Coddled society, and 3. Lack of incentive to keep a car running long.

Cuba is a great example of how older cars can be kept on the roads indefinitely. Modern cars? So many electronics and horrible modular part design that make them preposterous to keep on the road for decades. The government won’t allow cheap, small, lightweight, and simple cars on the road. But then the coddled masses don’t want those cars anyways. They want a car like they want a phone, as many features as possible to show off to their online friends.

I know I sound like an old guy, but I’m a late blooming millennial. I just see modern society as extremely wasteful, short sighted, and obsessed with virtue signaling, even when the virtue signaling revolves around consuming the latest fad.
 
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Modern cars irritate me. They represent three aspects of modernity that I consider detestable. 1. Government overreach, 2. Coddled society, and 3. Lack of incentive to keep a car running long.

Cuba is a great example of how older cars can be kept on the roads indefinitely. Modern cars? So many electronics and horrible modular part design that make them preposterous to keep on the road for decades. The government won’t allow cheap, small, lightweight, and simple cars on the road. But then the coddled masses don’t want those cars anyways. They want a car like they want a phone, as many features as possible to show off to their online friends.

I know I sound like an old guy, but I’m a late blooming millennial. I just see modern society as extremely wasteful, short sighted, and obsessed with virtue signaling, even when the virtue signaling revolves around consuming the latest fad.
EVs are beneficial in some areas, but there is a reason it is being pushed on us while the infrastructure is not there yet. I learned all about the reasons why it wasn't a viable option while I was studying environmental energy in college.

1. Lithium mining is not good for the environment, at all. It is a very dirty process that requires a lot of water. While it may be less pollution in areas like the US, it will be terrible for the areas where the mines are built (third world countries most likely).

2. The amount of mines that need to be constructed even if only half of the EVs are built that are needed to fill the 2030 goals stated by a lot of these governments is crazy.

3. EVs are easier and cheaper to build for manufacturers once they establish a concept vehicle, since most of the building is programming, less moving parts, and no longer any need to meet CAFE and EPA guidelines since all the pollution happens somewhere else, meaning more profit for them.

4. Since many EVs if not all will have the capability of over the air communication and updates tied directly to the car's drive system and function, it will be easier for governments to implement revenue generating systems like automatically charging you money if you go over the speed limit in a certain zone verified by GPS, or shutting off your vehicle for whatever reason.

I've studied climate change and environmental shifts for years, and it's funny how a solution only becomes available when there is an opportunity for multiple companies to make billions of dollars off that solution.


I remember doing several studies in college about what the best way to own a vehicle was vs. how much energy was consumed to build, drive, and recycle it. Buying an ICE car and keeping it for a long time was the best for the environment, particularly a diesel one since there was more energy produced from a gallon of diesel over gasoline. Many of my professors at the time drove diesel VWs and diesel trucks converted to biodiesel.
 

Pew

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Cuba is a great example of how older cars can be kept on the roads indefinitely. Modern cars? So many electronics and horrible modular part design that make them preposterous to keep on the road for decades. The government won’t allow cheap, small, lightweight, and simple cars on the road. But then the coddled masses don’t want those cars anyways. They want a car like they want a phone, as many features as possible to show off to their online friends.

I don't think Cuba's self-imposed restriction against technology and foreign embargos is a good example to use. If you look at their entire infrastructure, Cuba is generations behind on everything. They're the perfect example of what happens when you reject technological progression. Old cars weren't all that reliable either. Simpler sure when comparing today's technology and regulations to last century. Lots of these 4 bangers making similar or more horsepower than the "back in my day" V8s too. Don't need to run leaded gas, don't need to adjust carbs, don't need to worry about the car blowing up if rear ended, don't need to worry about a 4 speed downshifting to 2nd gear at 7000rpms to make it up a hill at 65mph.....
 
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Norway, the country that will ban internal combustion engines powering private vehicles by 2025, and may be 100 percent electric car sales exclusive in the next few months, announced yesterday they will disable electric vehicle charging as beneficial to support the power grid for other electric needs.
People can not quite grasp what the worlds governments are doing to us.
 

Pew

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People can not quite grasp what the worlds governments are doing to us.

I think this is a huge part of it. Not that I'm against certain government regulations but it seems like the rulebook has gotten ridiculously long. I've noticed the longer the rulebook (in any industry), the more expensive it is to certify because now you have to meet certain qualifications and some of these rules are ridiculous. Then there's rules that just doesn't make any sense because it's based off one metric like this Chevy Colorado thread yesterday from BITOG.
 
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I remember doing several studies in college about what the best way to own a vehicle was vs. how much energy was consumed to build, drive, and recycle it. Buying an ICE car and keeping it for a long time was the best for the environment, particularly a diesel one since there was more energy produced from a gallon of diesel over gasoline. Many of my professors at the time drove diesel VWs and diesel trucks converted to biodiesel.
Remember compared to diesel you can refine almost twice as much gasoline from a barrel of oil. ~20 gallons of gas vs ~12 gallons of diesel. Diesel isn't twice as efficient as gasoline so in terms of oil burned diesel uses more of it.
 
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Cuba is a great example of how older cars can be kept on the roads indefinitely.
In a way, sure. But large numbers of those 50s classics still running in Cuba are doing so because they were re-motored at some point with whatever Soviet-made tractor engines their owners could get ahold of. Real hodge-podges. Supposedly a lot of the best all-original examples were bought up and expatriated by wealthy European collectors years ago.
 
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Sounds like victim mentality to me. It’s all big and greedy corporations fault, not mine.

Notice we’re talking about vehicles, not food. Food price hikes I agree with you are hitting poor people the hardest, but let not pretend here that the same people that are struggling to put food on their table are going out and buying new vehicles because they have no other choice.

There is always a choice, if one chooses the easiest way out, and buys more then they afford, it is still their fault.

Edit:
If my kids are starving and I cannot put food on my table, the last thing I’m going to do is go out and buy a $30-40k vehicle because I need it for my, most likely dead end job. If one has that kind of thinking, they should have their head examined. These types of people will always be poor doesn’t matter if the times are good or bad.
You bring up good points: people really don’t have to go out and contribute to this enormous mess that is the new car world right now - they can buy used instead - or heaven forbid...fix their car and keep it. Once that happens, and happens more frequently? Game over, things will return to a much closer version of normal.

I know people that buy a new car every two years. They’re bored. They need the latest and greatest. They can’t wait to get the next one. On the flip side I see people that will never, EVER, buy a new car. Won’t happen. They can afford one, but they won’t buy one. Ever.

Interest rates were supposed to slow down inflation and the economy. It has a little bit, but until people say...I’m not spending THAT much. And then buy a used vehicle or keep their own, it’ll continue. And I‘m stunned so many people think nothing of going out there and throwing down $70,000 on a new pickup truck that they’ll never use for anything close to work related stuff. And then take a bath on it in two years in trade, and buy another. Blows my mind, but hey?? To each their own.
 
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