Performance of Base Oils & Future Trends

[ka9mnx]

Originally Posted by ekpolk
Originally Posted by StevieC


... It should put the Group 3 / 4 debate to rest.



GLWT...

Waaaaaay to much OCD (oil compulsive disorder) here!

IMO, one of the reasons this issue took on the life it still has, is the whiff of fraud (real or perceived) that came with the Castrol Syntec vs Mobil-1 arguments of 15-20 years ago. That was confounded and compounded by the essentially failed litigation (much in the administrative law world) between Exxon-Mobil and Castrol. And this wound festers on to this day. Add in understandable proprietary secrecy and the fact that most oils now are mixtures of various classes of base oils, and we've got a "problem" that will seemingly never go away.

So, is it a matter of:

Or:

Yes it still fester to this day and why I won't buy Castrol products.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by buster
How did Mobil achieve such a a great MRV number for the AFE 0w20 (MRV @ -40ºC (ASTM D4684) 9200) with it's only 30% PAO?


I am guessing that it doesn't take a lot of light PAO to drop the CCS and MRV down.

Originally Posted by buster
Oxidation stability is also better with PAO's, but A/O's also play a role. Oxidation resistance is crucial in long drain intervals, which is why you see Amsoil SS using IV/V. (I'm assuming that based on the low Noack numbers and cost).


This also makes a case for why EP and AP 0w-20 are majority PAO. Look at how much more PAO they use when compared to the AFE product.

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by deven
One of the only advantages of PAO nowadays is oil change interval. It can outlast Group III oils serviceability range.

You'd think PAO was gold though by the way some folks talk about it and stress over the amount of PAO in an oil.

What about the endless howlers over fake Synthetic ?
What's wrong with this revelation is guess who already knows this … The companies that produce base stock, formulate, and have the additive company …

 

[buster]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by buster
How did Mobil achieve such a a great MRV number for the AFE 0w20 (MRV @ -40ºC (ASTM D4684) 9200) with it's only 30% PAO?


I am guessing that it doesn't take a lot of light PAO to drop the CCS and MRV down.

Originally Posted by buster
Oxidation stability is also better with PAO's, but A/O's also play a role. Oxidation resistance is crucial in long drain intervals, which is why you see Amsoil SS using IV/V. (I'm assuming that based on the low Noack numbers and cost).


This also makes a case for why EP and AP 0w-20 are majority PAO. Look at how much more PAO they use when compared to the AFE product.


I agree, good points.

 

[Tom NJ]

BTW, welcome back Ekpolk!!!

 

[ekpolk]

Thanks Tom, it is nice to be back!

Originally Posted by 4WD
...
What about the endless howlers over fake Synthetic ?
...


I tend to think that "endless howlers" is probably a partially unfair label for those who protest along these lines. Irrespective of the quality (or not) of their current products, Castrol bears a huge share of the fault/blame for how things have unfolded up to now, particularly for how they presented "Syntec" oil in those days. Even sadder that this has little to do with how those oils actually performed in use.

And all this is yet further compounded by the fact (with maybe a shade of opinion) that in our context the term "fake" (and its synonyms) and even "synthetic" don't exactly have the clearest meanings. Or at least meanings upon which everyone can agree.

And the juggernaut (oiljug?) rolls on...

 

[4WD]

Well said … in a world where the "fact checkers" have become fake …

 

[Patman]

Originally Posted by ka9mnx

Yes it still fester to this day and why I won't buy Castrol products.


Hold grudges a long time eh?

 

[burla]

I wonder if anyone actually read the article instead of the conclusions or the main argument and put the tiniest bit of oil knowledge to the outcomes? It was stretching a case that group 3 is equal, not that they actually are. For ten or twenty years you could never win the argument does oil choice matter. Well, now with di turbo's the next generation will have a new no doubt answer of yes it does. Now, we want to use the same argument to compare group 3 versus 4 and 5, and at this time it is just exactly like the previous decade where you can answer either way and justify it to yourself. All I have to say, just like this twenty years changed the answer to the original question conventional versus synthetic, the next twenty years will change the answer group 3 versus 4/5. Sadly, there is no consequence for being wrong unless you are the smuck who listened to someone who didn't know and ran something in your engine that hurt it's potential longevity. The real tragedy is lack of options. Hopefully they will have di turbo pao/ester oils as an option, as just like moly and zinc they are also lspi quenchers.. Better to be safe then sorry, or...

lo barato sale caro

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted by Shannow

and OP slams me for anything that's not "fresh"

That mouse ain't fresh, Lennie...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by burla
I wonder if anyone actually read the article


I would have expected that my responses would have made it sufficiently clear that I had.

 

[burla]

Perhaps I should have said did anyone but overkill read the article.

Anyhow, they also point the argument to the margins and omit the major strengths of pao's and ignore esters all together, and ignore the temporary effect of dressing up group 3 oils, when many of their tasks are done naturally with group 4/5 oils.

 

[PeterPolyol]

Originally Posted by 4WD

What about the endless howlers over fake Synthetic ?
What's wrong with this revelation is guess who already knows this … The companies that produce base stock, formulate, and have the additive company …

Profit margins remain too high. They're still passing PAO/POE synthetic fluid costs down to the retail level for a cracked oil. When the costs of cracking GrIII becomes on par with synthesizing PAOs and Esters, or the retail price of GrIII more accurately represent the actual cost of production, then the howling might stop

*unusually low GrIII synth retail prices/rebates/promotions in the USA notwithstanding

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by burla
Perhaps I should have said did anyone but overkill read the article.

Anyhow, they also point the argument to the margins and omit the major strengths of pao's and ignore esters all together, and ignore the temporary effect of dressing up group 3 oils, when many of their tasks are done naturally with group 4/5 oils.


That's why I made the points I did about PPD's and PAO. They made it a point to stress that these comparisons were based on finished lubricants which of course included PPD's, which can degrade. Looking at oxidative stability and the fact that both extended OCI Mobil 1 0w-20 products leverage double the PAO of their non-extended OCI product, it points to there being something there as well.