Advantages of PAO over Group III: What has changed?

[JHZR2]

Eh, I like looking at both. My current fixation is the full-SAPS euro certifications, because I believe they were truly a "no holds barred" approach in terms of AW chemistry. On top of that, I don't use block heaters and sometimes have to deal with -30C, so I want some PAO in the base oil blend, preferably a lot of it if possible so the oil isn't dependant upon PPD's.

In that situation it makes a lot of sense.

For the 300MM or so people just to the south that never see such conditions, it really doesn’t matter as much… which I guess is why the oils are blended how they are.

 

[JHZR2]

Yes i think thats what i was saying, the lower cost replacement has been scaling up. PAO is still used for now, i'm making more of a prediction here that over time gr III+ kicks out more and more PAO, and it just hasn't happened completely yet b/c there's not enough of the new stuff yet as the demand for 0w16/0w20 keeps shooting up.

Well we know that whole group iii is a competitor in oxidative stability, it may not be in other areas like cold flow. Blending an oil to a price point with cheaper basestocks and PPDs is one way to do it, at least until they fail some specs for some reason. The increasingly stringent specs are what will keep pushing the PAO and POEs into the blends, IMO. The value proposition isn’t always there for heavy dosing, but I’d argue it will always need to be there at a lower level for balanced blending.

 

[dihi22]

I’m trying to figure out what exactly this group lll+, is.

This recent (or not so recent) if I’m reading this write, this article says GM claims there is a slight dip in performance when switching from a group lll, to a group lll+. Now, I don’t know if there also would be a dip in performance when switching from a grouplll to a POA either...nor do I know what they’re exactly talking about.

Is it time to revisit Group III+? - F&L Asia

Group II+ and Group III+ base stocks do not officially exist as categories under the American Petroleum Institute’s (API) Annex E of API 1509, Engine Oil Licensing and Certification System (EOLCS), a voluntary licensing and certification program administered by the largest U.S. oil and gas...

www.fuelsandlubes.com

Group III+ is more of a marketing term i think. I don't believe its an official separate api catogory. PAO is not the end all be all, but you don't hear any one coming out with group IV (PAO) as a group IV+. PAO is one of the best, not perfect for everything but its the decades long champion to defeat. Back in the golden days of the 80s and 90s when "Fully Synthetic" meant mostly PAO, its performance DESTROYED group II swill. Downside was cost. 3x more expensive bottles.

There was a legal dispute when Group IIIs were created and marketed as synthetics. So the name "FULL SYNTHETIC" at first got, ehem diluted when it was allowed as Group IIIs. Now the G-IIIs are claiming that they've closed the gap, etc, it even is *better* (terms and conditions may apply).

I hope it becomes so and its proven. $15-$20 jugs of motor oil that can perform like the top boutique blends would be motor oil nirvanna. We'd probably have to shutdown bobistheoilguy.com shortly after because there would be nothing left to discuss ;-)

 

[dihi22]

I know it has been mentioned that as Gr3+ gets closer to the performance of PAO it also takes on more of the negative attributes as well (i.e. additive solubility, seal compatibility?).

Yes yes yes, its hard to beat the best!

 

[JHZR2]

Group III+ is more of a marketing term i think. I don't believe its an official separate api catogory. PAO is not the end all be all, but you don't hear any one coming out with group IV (PAO) as a group IV+. PAO is one of the best, not perfect for everything but its the decades long champion to defeat. Back in the golden days of the 80s and 90s when "Fully Synthetic" meant mostly PAO, its performance DESTROYED group II swill. Downside was cost. 3x more expensive bottles.

There was a legal dispute when Group IIIs were created and marketed as synthetics. So the name "FULL SYNTHETIC" at first got, ehem diluted when it was allowed as Group IIIs. Now the G-IIIs are claiming that they've closed the gap, etc, it even is *better* (terms and conditions may apply).

I hope it becomes so and its proven. $15-$20 jugs of motor oil that can perform like the top boutique blends would be motor oil nirvanna. We'd probably have to shutdown bobistheoilguy.com shortly after because there would be nothing left to discuss ;-)

No, it wasn’t a legal dispute at law.

Been discussed many times before.

I've posted several times about this, but the notion that there was some sort of lawsuit regarding the use of the term synthetic still persists and is attaining "urban legend" status.

There was not and never has been any suit AT LAW regarding the use of the term "synthetic" for Group III base oil, and no court or ALJ has made a ruling on this matter. Mobil simply filed a complaint with the National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureau in the US claiming that Castrol was engaging in false advertising by calling Syntec "full synthetic" since it was now being made with Group III base oil. Castrol was able to present enough "evidence" to convince the NAD that Group III base oil could legitimately be called synthetic, so they rulled in Castrol's favor. This ruling has no "legal" standing. It merely means that as far as the NAD is concerned, an oil company is not falsely advertising an oil as "full synthetic" if that oil is made from Group III base oil.

The NAD is merely a self-regulatory arm of the BBB and has no legal standing whatsoever in the U.S. Hence, their ruling in this matter does not make it "legal" to claim that a Group III oil is "synthetic." It merely means that for any entity willing to abide by the NAD's guidelines, a Group III oil can be ADVERTISED under those guidelines as a synthetic.

 

[PimTac]

In that situation it makes a lot of sense.

For the 300MM or so people just to the south that never see such conditions, it really doesn’t matter as much… which I guess is why the oils are blended how they are.

But I wonder if there is some benefit for those of us who might experience colder temperatures in the winter? For example, a oil might be good down to -30° but if it is 5° or 0° Or even colder there must be some effect on the state of the oil in the pan? Oil doesn’t just decide not to pump at a particular temp.

 

[JHZR2]

But I wonder if there is some benefit for those of us who might experience colder temperatures in the winter? For example, a oil might be good down to -30° but if it is 5° or 0° Or even colder there must be some effect on the state of the oil in the pan? Oil doesn’t just decide not to pump at a particular temp.

Sure. Maybe… old stories indicated that was the reason to move to 5w-30 from 10w-30. There was a marginal fuel economy increase that resulted since it flowed easier at “normal” temperatures.

But reality is that it has no practical impact on vehicles living 100k, 200k, 300k miles for 99%+ of the vehicles out there. UV, rust, slobs, impacts, or other failures will do them in before the fraction of PAO vs grip III has any plausible impact.

 

[The Critic]

In that situation it makes a lot of sense.

For the 300MM or so people just to the south that never see such conditions, it really doesn’t matter as much… which I guess is why the oils are blended how they are.

For those of us who live in areas that never get below 32F, even 20W-50 conventional will be fine!

 

[dihi22]

For those of us who live in areas that never get below 32F, even 20W-50 conventional will be fine!

20w-50 lol, when i was in high school i had an 89 escort and she was consuming, so i went from 5w-30 to 20w-50 and the consumption went way down.

That was upper deck consumption, it was buring from valve leakage suspected over pressure. She never met a valve cover gasket she couldn't pop, so It wasn't blow by (piston rings). I freaking JB WELDED IT cuz i didnt want to be the poor kid at the rich kid high school leaking oil in the lot. Valve cover didn't leak after THAT!!! LOL!

Ran that all season. Engine didn't blow up. She even STARTED in the winter, barley but she could turn over below freezing. Junked car while she was still running just fine a couple years later.

I read the overseas Toy Rav4 21 manual and it says 10w-30 might prevent it from turning over in cold weather and I just laugh... 20w-50 store brand conventional circa 1999 couldn't seize a crappy 89 escort...but 10w-30 from 2021 might stop a crank from spinning toyota? sheesh.

 

[The Critic]

I read the overseas Toy Rav4 21 manual and it says 10w-30 might prevent it from turning over in cold weather and I just laugh... 20w-50 store brand conventional circa 1999 couldn't seize a crappy 89 escort...but 10w-30 from 2021 might stop a crank from spinning toyota? sheesh.

I will say that hybrids can be quite impacted by oil viscosity. A lot of the city driven ones will have fairly low oil temperatures, so going up a grade (or two) can have a greater impact on MPG than a normal ICE engine that sees oil temps in the 200-220F range.

 

[dihi22]

I will say that hybrids can be quite impacted by oil viscosity. A lot of the city driven ones will have fairly low oil temperatures, so going up a grade (or two) can have a greater impact on MPG than a normal ICE engine that sees oil temps in the 200-220F range.

totally agree, i did leave out the hybrids. There are many driving conditions where they are running at lower operating temps.

 

[nthach]

20w-50 lol, when i was in high school i had an 89 escort and she was consuming, so i went from 5w-30 to 20w-50 and the consumption went way down.

That was upper deck consumption, it was buring from valve leakage suspected over pressure. She never met a valve cover gasket she couldn't pop, so It wasn't blow by (piston rings). I freaking JB WELDED IT cuz i didnt want to be the poor kid at the rich kid high school leaking oil in the lot. Valve cover didn't leak after THAT!!! LOL!

Ran that all season. Engine didn't blow up. She even STARTED in the winter, barley but she could turn over below freezing. Junked car while she was still running just fine a couple years later.

I read the overseas Toy Rav4 21 manual and it says 10w-30 might prevent it from turning over in cold weather and I just laugh... 20w-50 store brand conventional circa 1999 couldn't seize a crappy 89 escort...but 10w-30 from 2021 might stop a crank from spinning toyota? sheesh.

My parents had an old Mercedes that used 20W-50. It took it a while to crank while parked overnight in Reno when it fell to the upper teens.

However, thicker oils are common practice in South/Southeast Asia, Australia and NZ.

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

How did this thread become another thick vs. thin tosser match?

 

[MolaKule]

Ok, this thread has gone off the reservation to another thick verses thin debate, not the PAO vs GroupIII discussion, so we will close it.