You messed up putting syn in a car that only ran Dino for 10years those seals are worn and brittle at that age
Pennzoil Platinum started leaking
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Originally Posted By: Trav
I wish people would get over this HM oil kick. It doesn't need it, the seal materials in this engine do not respond to esters which are what HM use to swell seals. The o rings are FKM and the rear seal is FFKM material, both are impervious to this sort of swell additive.
Interesting! How can we know what kind of seals our cars have? Also, what is FKM and FFKM?
Are the seals on flex-fuel vehicles a different material than for reguler gasoline vehicles?
Thanks!
I wish people would get over this HM oil kick. It doesn't need it, the seal materials in this engine do not respond to esters which are what HM use to swell seals. The o rings are FKM and the rear seal is FFKM material, both are impervious to this sort of swell additive.
Interesting! How can we know what kind of seals our cars have? Also, what is FKM and FFKM?
Are the seals on flex-fuel vehicles a different material than for reguler gasoline vehicles?
Thanks!
Viton is FKM, Kalrez (Dupont brand) is an example of FFKM. They do not harden or get brittle. Single piece rear seals in most modern cars from the mid 2000's are OE either FFKM, PTFE rubber or to a lesser extent polyacrylate or silicone based but very few today are nitrile (Buna-N) although this material is still common in cooler running front seals.
Old impregnated rope seals are almost non existent today, this type BTW does not respond well to swellers either.
The main difference in flex fuel engines is in the o rings, gaskets and hoses used in the fuel system.
Swellers (conditioners as they like to call them today) work on some things and not on others, what seals a PS rack on one make maybe totally ineffective on another because of the seal material.
HM oils may work fine in some older engines or engines using nitrile seals, rubber, cork, fiber gaskets etc but may exacerbate a leaking RTV seal.
The best way IMHO for stop a leak is to repair it or live with it if its not too severe.
Old impregnated rope seals are almost non existent today, this type BTW does not respond well to swellers either.
The main difference in flex fuel engines is in the o rings, gaskets and hoses used in the fuel system.
Swellers (conditioners as they like to call them today) work on some things and not on others, what seals a PS rack on one make maybe totally ineffective on another because of the seal material.
HM oils may work fine in some older engines or engines using nitrile seals, rubber, cork, fiber gaskets etc but may exacerbate a leaking RTV seal.
The best way IMHO for stop a leak is to repair it or live with it if its not too severe.
In my experience two reasons. They can get varnish or deposits under the lip and around them and wear. They can wear and so can the crankshaft, cam, and other shafts, it can get a groove in it.
That's one of the reasons they make shaft sleeves, the other being nicks and burs from damage usually inflicted from improperly removing seals.
That's one of the reasons they make shaft sleeves, the other being nicks and burs from damage usually inflicted from improperly removing seals.
Thanks, Trav!
My CV has 120K on it. It's a flex fuel. No leaks at this point. I was thinking of switching to a HM oil to prevent the seals from hardening, but now I wonder if they'll even react to the esters.
My CV has 120K on it. It's a flex fuel. No leaks at this point. I was thinking of switching to a HM oil to prevent the seals from hardening, but now I wonder if they'll even react to the esters.
Originally Posted By: Trav
EXL has iVTEC and uses a spool valve on the rear head (drivers side). When long OCI are done on these engines these tend to fail around this mileage, 8K is 4K can be too long with this engine even on synthetic.
You positively 100% have a deposit issue in this engine running conventional oil, how severe it is depends on how much time it spent in eco mode.
The worst thing you can do is leave it alone, it can eventually cover the pick up and starve the engine or the spool valve can get filled with junk and prevent 6 cyl operation leaving you with a CEL and an engine trying to run on 3 cyl.
This will tear the $600 electric hydro rear mount (not inc labor) up quickly and light up the dash like a Christmas tree.
The OLM on this engine is absolutely useless, the geniuses at Honda didn't take into account the intense heat generated by the front cylinders during eco mode, it overheats and tears the oil up.
The first thing to clog is the tiny undersized PCV valve and passages under the valve cover then it progresses quickly from there. Crankcase pressure increases and leaks occur, they are not usually permanent if you relieve the pressure.
The rear main seal area of the crank probably has a lot of varnish on it, as it cleans it will leak, it will also subside eventually.
You need to assess the deposit situation first before taking any steps to correct it, don't mess around with HM oils, it does not address this situation, the seals don't need a seal sweller.
Start by removing the front valve cover (looking down the hole wont tell you much), clean the passages under the cover and change the PCV valve. Depending on what you find will dictate the next steps.
I have found a few different ways to address the problem once its severity has been identified, there is a way to clean the pan, pick up and passages without tearing too much apart using this tool and a solvent.
The procedure is my own and must be followed to prevent damage but it works well and is safe. You must clean the front valve cover off the engine to insure good flow to the PCV.
flush tool
I always knew there was a reason I didn't like that little green Eco button in my civic
EXL has iVTEC and uses a spool valve on the rear head (drivers side). When long OCI are done on these engines these tend to fail around this mileage, 8K is 4K can be too long with this engine even on synthetic.
You positively 100% have a deposit issue in this engine running conventional oil, how severe it is depends on how much time it spent in eco mode.
The worst thing you can do is leave it alone, it can eventually cover the pick up and starve the engine or the spool valve can get filled with junk and prevent 6 cyl operation leaving you with a CEL and an engine trying to run on 3 cyl.
This will tear the $600 electric hydro rear mount (not inc labor) up quickly and light up the dash like a Christmas tree.
The OLM on this engine is absolutely useless, the geniuses at Honda didn't take into account the intense heat generated by the front cylinders during eco mode, it overheats and tears the oil up.
The first thing to clog is the tiny undersized PCV valve and passages under the valve cover then it progresses quickly from there. Crankcase pressure increases and leaks occur, they are not usually permanent if you relieve the pressure.
The rear main seal area of the crank probably has a lot of varnish on it, as it cleans it will leak, it will also subside eventually.
You need to assess the deposit situation first before taking any steps to correct it, don't mess around with HM oils, it does not address this situation, the seals don't need a seal sweller.
Start by removing the front valve cover (looking down the hole wont tell you much), clean the passages under the cover and change the PCV valve. Depending on what you find will dictate the next steps.
I have found a few different ways to address the problem once its severity has been identified, there is a way to clean the pan, pick up and passages without tearing too much apart using this tool and a solvent.
The procedure is my own and must be followed to prevent damage but it works well and is safe. You must clean the front valve cover off the engine to insure good flow to the PCV.
flush tool
I always knew there was a reason I didn't like that little green Eco button in my civic
Originally Posted By: shiny
Thanks, Trav!
My CV has 120K on it. It's a flex fuel. No leaks at this point. I was thinking of switching to a HM oil to prevent the seals from hardening, but now I wonder if they'll even react to the esters.
Esters are a good thing in a properly balanced package like that found in motor oil, but like anything else too much of a good thing may have undesirable effects.
IMO poor maintenance practices contribute more to oil leaks in the rotating seal areas than anything else.
Many engines today use forged cranks that don't wear as much as the old cast cranks in the seal lip area but when the seals get crud and varnish buildup around them they can leak.
If your engine is tight just keep up the maintenance, the 4.6 and 5.4 are not known to be leakers.
IMO using swellers and to some extent HM oils as preventative maintenance In a good running tight engine is killing it with kindness.
Thanks, Trav!
My CV has 120K on it. It's a flex fuel. No leaks at this point. I was thinking of switching to a HM oil to prevent the seals from hardening, but now I wonder if they'll even react to the esters.
Esters are a good thing in a properly balanced package like that found in motor oil, but like anything else too much of a good thing may have undesirable effects.
IMO poor maintenance practices contribute more to oil leaks in the rotating seal areas than anything else.
Many engines today use forged cranks that don't wear as much as the old cast cranks in the seal lip area but when the seals get crud and varnish buildup around them they can leak.
If your engine is tight just keep up the maintenance, the 4.6 and 5.4 are not known to be leakers.
IMO using swellers and to some extent HM oils as preventative maintenance In a good running tight engine is killing it with kindness.
Trav; You mentioned in eco mode the cylinders left doing all the work produce extra heat, which makes sense. That should hold true for all cylinder dropping engines if the cylinders being dropped are the same ones all the time. With direct injection alternating dropped cylinders could improve fuel economy at moderate loads. At light loads, the main cylinder dropping system could be incorporated with the fuel injection's random selection. This is not entirely off-topic. Cylinder deactivation is causing other problems that people want to fix with a can of this or that. Thank you for setting the record straight with actual facts.
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After 35k miles with syn replacing dino I'm noticing a drop or two overnight leak sometimes...will be checking for the origins but if it's just a seal I'll add some sealer a few hundred miles just before the next OC and see how it works...otherwise I'll live with it...put an interior rubber mat underneath to prevent driveway spotting, that's all...
Clean the engine off and get a UV dye kit before doing anything. Knowing the origin of the leak goes a long way in determining the correct course of action.
UV dye is harmless, there are formulations for use in oil, coolant, trans fluid, fuel, A/C and PS systems. Sometimes the leak is nowhere near where you thought it was.
This works well, a valuable diagnostic tool.
http://www.amazon.com/Mastercool-53512-U...ords=UV+dye+kit
http://www.amazon.com/Interdynamics-374C...0RRJP344QJP6VDC
UV dye is harmless, there are formulations for use in oil, coolant, trans fluid, fuel, A/C and PS systems. Sometimes the leak is nowhere near where you thought it was.
This works well, a valuable diagnostic tool.
http://www.amazon.com/Mastercool-53512-U...ords=UV+dye+kit
http://www.amazon.com/Interdynamics-374C...0RRJP344QJP6VDC
Originally Posted By: Trav
In my experience two reasons. They can get varnish or deposits under the lip and around them and wear. They can wear and so can the crankshaft, cam, and other shafts, it can get a groove in it.
That's one of the reasons they make shaft sleeves, the other being nicks and burs from damage usually inflicted from improperly removing seals.
In your opinion, how is the quality of FelPro seals as compared to OEM? Would it be advisable to replace NOT LEAKING OEM seal (with lots of miles on it) with a new FelPro or am I doing the wrong thing?
In my experience two reasons. They can get varnish or deposits under the lip and around them and wear. They can wear and so can the crankshaft, cam, and other shafts, it can get a groove in it.
That's one of the reasons they make shaft sleeves, the other being nicks and burs from damage usually inflicted from improperly removing seals.
In your opinion, how is the quality of FelPro seals as compared to OEM? Would it be advisable to replace NOT LEAKING OEM seal (with lots of miles on it) with a new FelPro or am I doing the wrong thing?
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: shiny
Thanks, Trav!
My CV has 120K on it. It's a flex fuel. No leaks at this point. I was thinking of switching to a HM oil to prevent the seals from hardening, but now I wonder if they'll even react to the esters.
Esters are a good thing in a properly balanced package like that found in motor oil, but like anything else too much of a good thing may have undesirable effects.
IMO poor maintenance practices contribute more to oil leaks in the rotating seal areas than anything else.
Many engines today use forged cranks that don't wear as much as the old cast cranks in the seal lip area but when the seals get crud and varnish buildup around them they can leak.
If your engine is tight just keep up the maintenance, the 4.6 and 5.4 are not known to be leakers.
IMO using swellers and to some extent HM oils as preventative maintenance In a good running tight engine is killing it with kindness.
Thanks again, Trav. I appreciate your reasoning. Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge.
Originally Posted By: shiny
Thanks, Trav!
My CV has 120K on it. It's a flex fuel. No leaks at this point. I was thinking of switching to a HM oil to prevent the seals from hardening, but now I wonder if they'll even react to the esters.
Esters are a good thing in a properly balanced package like that found in motor oil, but like anything else too much of a good thing may have undesirable effects.
IMO poor maintenance practices contribute more to oil leaks in the rotating seal areas than anything else.
Many engines today use forged cranks that don't wear as much as the old cast cranks in the seal lip area but when the seals get crud and varnish buildup around them they can leak.
If your engine is tight just keep up the maintenance, the 4.6 and 5.4 are not known to be leakers.
IMO using swellers and to some extent HM oils as preventative maintenance In a good running tight engine is killing it with kindness.
Thanks again, Trav. I appreciate your reasoning. Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Originally Posted By: Trav
In my experience two reasons. They can get varnish or deposits under the lip and around them and wear. They can wear and so can the crankshaft, cam, and other shafts, it can get a groove in it.
That's one of the reasons they make shaft sleeves, the other being nicks and burs from damage usually inflicted from improperly removing seals.
In your opinion, how is the quality of FelPro seals as compared to OEM? Would it be advisable to replace NOT LEAKING OEM seal (with lots of miles on it) with a new FelPro or am I doing the wrong thing?
It depends, no way am i not changing a rear engine and transmission front seal when i have the flywheel off to do a clutch. On the other hand i am not tearing cam pulleys off to change a perfectly dry cam seal when i do a timing belt the first time, i probably will the second time.
Fel-Pro makes great gaskets but i try to do a little investigating first. Sometimes they are behind the OE on revisions, eg GM came out with new aluminum frame FFKM insert 3800 LIM gaskets long before Fel-Pro or any other aftermarket did.
I choose the seal by trusted make first then material eg i wont put a DNJ in there no matter what they claim its made of.
Here is an example for one engine rear main i did.
OE Fluoroelastomer
Fel-Pro Rubber
National Silicone
Timken Fluoroelastomer
VICTOR REINZ Rubber
The Timken was significantly more expensive than the Fel-Pro but a couple of bucks less than the National. Timken was the obvious choice, it used the superior OE material in fact it was a repacked OE part.
The point i am trying to make is there is no concrete answer as to which brand to use, these are all top shelf but one is using a better material.
I am no expert on seals i just made an effort to inform myself on the different materials and styles over the years because i use them so much and long term longevity is important.
Which seal is it and for what vehicle?
Originally Posted By: Trav
In my experience two reasons. They can get varnish or deposits under the lip and around them and wear. They can wear and so can the crankshaft, cam, and other shafts, it can get a groove in it.
That's one of the reasons they make shaft sleeves, the other being nicks and burs from damage usually inflicted from improperly removing seals.
In your opinion, how is the quality of FelPro seals as compared to OEM? Would it be advisable to replace NOT LEAKING OEM seal (with lots of miles on it) with a new FelPro or am I doing the wrong thing?
It depends, no way am i not changing a rear engine and transmission front seal when i have the flywheel off to do a clutch. On the other hand i am not tearing cam pulleys off to change a perfectly dry cam seal when i do a timing belt the first time, i probably will the second time.
Fel-Pro makes great gaskets but i try to do a little investigating first. Sometimes they are behind the OE on revisions, eg GM came out with new aluminum frame FFKM insert 3800 LIM gaskets long before Fel-Pro or any other aftermarket did.
I choose the seal by trusted make first then material eg i wont put a DNJ in there no matter what they claim its made of.
Here is an example for one engine rear main i did.
OE Fluoroelastomer
Fel-Pro Rubber
National Silicone
Timken Fluoroelastomer
VICTOR REINZ Rubber
The Timken was significantly more expensive than the Fel-Pro but a couple of bucks less than the National. Timken was the obvious choice, it used the superior OE material in fact it was a repacked OE part.
The point i am trying to make is there is no concrete answer as to which brand to use, these are all top shelf but one is using a better material.
I am no expert on seals i just made an effort to inform myself on the different materials and styles over the years because i use them so much and long term longevity is important.
Which seal is it and for what vehicle?
99 Camry 4-cyl; Fel-Pro TCS45920 TC Gasket
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CNC6A2
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CNC6A2
You should change that seal, when you pull the harmonic balancer you are disturbing the seal. The Fel-Pro is good seal in this application (possibly rebox OE anyway), its a cool running seal.
Check the crankshaft nose for a groove at this mileage, they do make a sleeve for it if needed.
Check the crankshaft nose for a groove at this mileage, they do make a sleeve for it if needed.
A few more notes. I quickly switched to Pennzoil HM 5w20 the other day and the leak has slowed down to a third of what it was. I did this before everyone started responding including Trav with his knowledge of seals. I guess perhaps the slightly thicker oil is not dripping as much? Any way to address the VCM issue about 6 months ago I got a device called the VCM Muzzler that some people on the Honda forums have been using that disables the Variable Cylinder Management system and its been working like a dream. Just putting that out there but no doubt the engine ran the last 120k miles on vmc/eco mode all the time and I am sure that sticking with the Maintenance minder like I did with regular oil was stupid but I wasn't a BITOG member back then and I still trusted what my owners manual said. Now here is my question for Trav. I originally wanted to switch to PP because I knew of the sludge issues and the beating on oil this engine can produce but now that its obvious PP is so slippery / thin / awesome or whatever that it will drip out like water should I continue to try and use it to clean up or should I switch to regular pennzoil or mobil super and live on? I really appreciate our post on how to clean it but honestly I'm not going to do that. Lastly my mechanic says its the seal on the Vtech solenoid and that he is confidant that is the only leak after putting dye in it and checking with the black light. So do you think just replace that seal and continue with PP?
Also Trav.... What is your oil of choice just asking. Take a look at my cars in my sig. what oil would you recommend I use in them. Old 98 Avalon (known potential sludge motor) 08 Altima 2.5 (easy on oil) 05 Odyssey (known hard on oil) I don't want to switch the other cars over to PP if they might do the same thing and leak? I know Pennzoil Gold Bottle is loved here but the active cleansing agents might do a number on the older avalon? Will it respond well to HM oil as its a 98? Thanks for any advice.
I use 5w30 or 0w40 in them, None that i ever worked on have has had 20w anything. PP, PU, QSUD, Mobil 1 0w30 are all suitable for all your cars. None of these will cause a leak although a slight leak may get a little worse but only temporarily.
People freak out and start claiming synthetic caused a leak then they run right out in a panic and start with HM oil.
If its just the spool valve seal leaking have it changed, its cheap enough.
I work on one with 200K on it and it has had 0w40 in it since 80K and runs perfectly. 5w30 seems to work just as well as long as its synthetic.
I am familiar with the device you mention, it fools the ecm into thinking it doesn't have enough oil pressure to kick in the VCM but enough to keep the oil pressure light out. Its an inline resistor AFAIK.
Turning it off in the ecm would be the best way but Honda wont allow that. In any case turning that garbage (that's being charitable) off was the best thing you could do.
If you haven't changed the PCV change it now.
People freak out and start claiming synthetic caused a leak then they run right out in a panic and start with HM oil.
If its just the spool valve seal leaking have it changed, its cheap enough.
I work on one with 200K on it and it has had 0w40 in it since 80K and runs perfectly. 5w30 seems to work just as well as long as its synthetic.
I am familiar with the device you mention, it fools the ecm into thinking it doesn't have enough oil pressure to kick in the VCM but enough to keep the oil pressure light out. Its an inline resistor AFAIK.
Turning it off in the ecm would be the best way but Honda wont allow that. In any case turning that garbage (that's being charitable) off was the best thing you could do.
If you haven't changed the PCV change it now.
Trav. what about that talk that using the correct 20wt vs say 30 helps oil temp due to higher flow as well as being needed for the varous tight tolerance in the motors? Your advice is I would be just fine with a syn that's 0w30? would there be any benefit to that in place of say 0w20?
I guess I have just learned the hard way so many times it's hard to not listen to what seems to be common wisdom. I would hate to run into trouble and be told you shouldn't have used 30wt or whatever
I guess I have just learned the hard way so many times it's hard to not listen to what seems to be common wisdom. I would hate to run into trouble and be told you shouldn't have used 30wt or whatever
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