Pennzoil Marine Premium Plus 2-Cycle Synthetic Blend "TC-W3" okay in small air cooled engines?

[nooch450]

So I have been feeding a steady diet of 50:1 Pennzoil Marine Premium Plus 2-Cycle Synthetic Blend Oil into my Weed trimmers, chainsaws and backpack blowers for a number of years now without anything bad happening...

However I stumbed across some information that said the TC-W3 2 stroke oil is only for use in water cooled two stroke Marine applications because air cooled two stroke engines run much hotter. This got me thinking.... Have I been doing slow and/or unnoticeable damage to my equipment by running the TC-W3 oil??

Pennzoil also offers a "Pennzoil Premium Outboard and Multipurpose 2-Cycle Oil" that is both TC-W3 and ACI TC rated and when comparing their "flash point" and "viscosity" specs i don't see any significant differences.

I've also found ACI TC rated oil specs from other manufacturers with higher or lower flash points than both Pennzoils I've mentioned above.

Am I looking at the data all wrong? Why shouldn't I keep using the Pennzoil Marine Premium Plus 2-Cycle Synthetic Blend Oil TC-W3 rated oil in my little air cooled engines?

I really want to know how this could make any difference! I've attached spec sheets below....

 

[fantastic]

It does appear these Marine oils were mainly for use in Water cooled marine engines as you stated. Using boat engines for testing & not air cooled outdoor engines like your backpack blower etc. Personally, I'd move to an API licensed full synthetic 2 stroke oil. It's really easy to pick some up from Walmart these days but the skies are the limit for non marine two stroke oils.

 

[nooch450]

It does appear these Marine oils were mainly for use in Water cooled marine engines as you stated. Using boat engines for testing & not air cooled outdoor engines like your backpack blower etc. Personally, I'd move to an API licensed full synthetic 2 stroke oil. It's really easy to pick some up from Walmart these days but the skies are the limit for non marine two stroke oils.

I'm mostly wondering if any damage could have been done from using the TC-W3 oil. Going forward I will likely switch to an ACI TC oil rated for air cooled two strokes.

 

[WobblyElvis]

I've been using TC-W3 oil in my chain saw for 40 years. No damage and exceptionally clean inside. Occasional use only, all original.

 

[GSCJR]

I have been feeding a steady diet of TC-W3 at a rate of 50:1 into my trimmers and snow blowers for a number of years now without anything bad happening.

+1

 

[Rand]

If you want the best look for JASO FD rating.
VP Racing at walmart
echo red armor at home depot
etc.

 

[JavierH19]

I've been using tcw3 jugs in all my ope for over 15 years. Zero issues everything runs with the same power as new.

 

[Brian123]

So I have been feeding a steady diet of 50:1 Pennzoil Marine Premium Plus 2-Cycle Synthetic Blend Oil into my Weed trimmers, chainsaws and backpack blowers for a number of years now without anything bad happening...

However I stumbed across some information that said the TC-W3 2 stroke oil is only for use in water cooled two stroke Marine applications because air cooled two stroke engines run much hotter. This got me thinking.... Have I been doing slow and/or unnoticeable damage to my equipment by running the TC-W3 oil??

Pennzoil also offers a "Pennzoil Premium Outboard and Multipurpose 2-Cycle Oil" that is both TC-W3 and ACI TC rated and when comparing their "flash point" and "viscosity" specs i don't see any significant differences.

I've also found ACI TC rated oil specs from other manufacturers with higher or lower flash points than both Pennzoils I've mentioned above.

Am I looking at the data all wrong? Why shouldn't I keep using the Pennzoil Marine Premium Plus 2-Cycle Synthetic Blend Oil TC-W3 rated oil in my little air cooled engines?

I really want to know how this could make any difference! I've attached spec sheets below....

View attachment 293889View attachment 293890

This discussion comes up quite a bit with the 2-stroke oil that you are using, so far so good with no issues, you are using this oil at 50 to 1. I would use the oil you are using at maybe 40 to 1, you have not had any issues because either you are lucky, or you are not revving it past a certain rpm. I have seen where the type of oil you are using is great but only when it is used at like 32 to 1

Here is my recommendation, since you have a concern about the 2-stroke oil you are using, the best oil for your application is Amsoil Saber Pro at either 50 to 1 or 40 to 1
I run the stuff at 40 to 1 with my trimmer, backpack blower and chainsaw. I can do the low idle thing and high RPM thing and everything is fine. I had a 150-year-old Maple Tree fall down, and Amsoil Saber Pro did not let me down at 40 to 1 cutting the tree up

I think in a chainsaw a tcw-3 oil like Pennzoil Marine will run cleaner, but it will only protect at a ratio of maybe 32 to 1
I have had no issues with Amsoil Saber Pro

Be careful what you read, if you are not having any issues, keep doing what you are doing, but when you have an issue and you need to get a new 2 stroke piece of equipment, Amsoil Saber Pro at 40 to 1

 

[nooch450]

My weed trimmer gets used for the duration of about 1.5 - 2 full tanks of fuel at almost wide open throttle when I need to trim a large hill in my backyard that is too steep to mow. My backpack blower is used about the same when the fall hits and the leaves are dropping.

There has been no shortage of long term wide open throttle RPM use on any of my equipment.

 

[Japanese]

Read your owner's manual and will find out what oil to use. Basically you can run any 2 stroke oil. High viscosity oils can be used at 40:1 and low viscosity oils can be run at 32:1 or 25:1.
Chainsaw/mowers oils usually are mineral high viscosity (about SAE30) JASO FB, there is some ash in them (ash is used to lubricate at high temp) because lawn equipment is air cooled an run at high RPM.
Marine oils usually are low viscosity oils (about SAE20) because they need to flow easy at lower temperatures and in oil injection systems, don't have any ash, and are designed for minimal pollution.

Lawn equipment use much smaller engines than boat engines. Smaller engines run always hotter and also at double the RPM of boat engines and for that reason they need high viscosity oils or low viscosity oils at lower ratio like 32:1 or 25:1.

This is what I learned for about 2-3 year researching about oils for 2 stroke engines. The working temperatures below I learned recently form a very informative post here. I'll post the link if I come across at it again.

In 2 stroke engines the amount of oil used depends on four things:
1. The quality of the metals used for the engine internals (cylinder, piston, bearings)
For example Shihl equipment use magnesium pistons which are lighter than aluminum pistons:
https://www.stihl.co.uk/en/professional/innovations-technology/magnesium-piston
2. Engine size (small displacement engine run hotter than large displacement)
3. Cooling - air or water
Air cooled 2 stroke engines run at about 160°C/320°F below the piston (wrist pin bearing and rod bearing) and about 200°C/390°F at the head. Marine engines run at about 160°F to 180°F (71°C to 82°C) degrees. That is why lawn equipment oils always have higher flash point and ash than marine oils.
4. Optimal RPM range

Large displacement water cooled engines that run at max 6000 RPM use less oil than small air cooled lawn engines that run at 9K-12K RPM. Same goes for motorbikes and karts - 125cc engines always run more oil than 250cc engines. 60cc karts always run more oil than 100cc and 125cc karts. Kart engines run above 15K and some close to 18K RPM and use 12:1 or 16:1 ratios of high performance synthetic oils.

 

[nooch450]

Read your owner's manual and will find out what oil to use. Basically you can run any 2 stroke oil. High viscosity oils can be used at 40:1 and low viscosity oils can be run at 32:1 or 25:1.
Chainsaw/mowers oils usually are mineral high viscosity (about SAE30) JASO FB, there is some ash in them (ash is used to lubricate at high temp) because lawn equipment is air cooled an run at high RPM.
Marine oils usually are low viscosity oils (about SAE20) because they need to flow easy at lower temperatures and in oil injection systems, don't have any ash, and are designed for minimal pollution.

Lawn equipment use much smaller engines than boat engines. Smaller engines run always hotter and also at double the RPM of boat engines and for that reason they need high viscosity oils or low viscosity oils at lower ratio like 32:1 or 25:1.

This is what I learned for about 2-3 year researching about oils for 2 stroke engines. The working temperatures below I learned recently form a very informative post here. I'll post the link if I come across at it again.

In 2 stroke engines the amount of oil used depends on four things:
1. The quality of the metals used for the engine internals (cylinder, piston, bearings)
For example Shihl equipment use magnesium pistons which are lighter than aluminum pistons:
https://www.stihl.co.uk/en/professional/innovations-technology/magnesium-piston
2. Engine size (small displacement engine run hotter than large displacement)
3. Cooling - air or water
Air cooled 2 stroke engines run at about 160°C/320°F below the piston (wrist pin bearing and rod bearing) and about 200°C/390°F at the head. Marine engines run at about 160°F to 180°F (71°C to 82°C) degrees. That is why lawn equipment oils always have higher flash point and ash than marine oils.
4. Optimal RPM range

Large displacement water cooled engines that run at max 6000 RPM use less oil than small air cooled lawn engines that run at 9K-12K RPM. Same goes for motorbikes and karts - 125cc engines always run more oil than 250cc engines. 60cc karts always run more oil than 100cc and 125cc karts. Kart engines run above 15K and some close to 18K RPM and use 12:1 or 16:1 ratios of high performance synthetic oils.

This has been very informative! Would you be able to review the Flashpoint and viscosity of the oil spec sheets I have posted above to tell me if you see any significant differences? One is rated for TC-W3 and the other is rated for TC-W3 and ACI TC. I do not see any significant differences. Based on the data sheets how likely do you think damage has been caused by using the "wrong" oil?

 

[repairman54]

I used TCW3 oils in my old air cooled snowmobile engines premixed at 40:1 with no issues and still use it in my OPE at 40:1
I prefer full synth. oils over semi oils. No one says how much synth. is in a semi. oil.

 

[Japanese]

This has been very informative! Would you be able to review the Flashpoint and viscosity of the oil spec sheets I have posted above to tell me if you see any significant differences? One is rated for TC-W3 and the other is rated for TC-W3 and ACI TC. I do not see any significant differences. Based on the data sheets how likely do you think damage has been caused by using the "wrong" oil?

Thanks! It's just interesting for me to read about oils and compare their tech data at least on paper.
Regarding the two oils you are asking about - yes, on paper they look almost the same. You cannot damage your engine with just a few tanks of marine oil at 50:1, but you definitely cutting the engine's life down.

Marine Premium Plus Outboard
Kinematic viscosity @40°C (104°F): 59 cSt
Kinematic viscosity @100°C (212°F): 9.37 cSt
Flash point: 97°C (207°F)
Pour point: -43°C (-45°F)

Premium Outboard and Multipurpose
Kinematic viscosity @40°C (104°F): 58.7 cSt
Kinematic viscosity @100°C (212°F): 9.53 cSt
Flash point: 100°C (212°F)
Pour point: -39°C (-38°F)

The second oil has a bit higher viscosity @100°C (working temp) and a bit higher flash point, but both are negligible compared to the first oil. Their viscosity @40°C is the same. Both oils have viscosity @100°C at the upper end of SAE20 oil. SAE30 oils starts at least 10 cSt (kinematic viscosity @100°C). However the second oil description states that the oil can be used in air cooled 2-stroke engines because exceeds API TC standard.
However the lowest standard for lawn equipment oils is JASO FB which is mineral SAE30 oil, not API TC (whatever this standard means, it's very outdated). JASO FB oils are mineral and much ticker oils than those two outboard oils.
To compensate for the thinner (low viscosity) outboard oil you can use them at at least 32:1 and you'll be fine. In 2-stroke engines at high RPM (above 8,000-10,000 RPM) there are conditions present for oil starvation, if the oil is not viscous enough.

Some people run Amsoil Saber at 100:1 ratio because that oil has kinematic viscosity @100°C (212°F): 14 cSt, which is like SAE40 oil (it's a thick oil) and also has flash point at 180°C (356°F), which on theory equals to running 50:1 oil with kinematic viscosity @100°C (212°F): 7 cSt (SAE16), which is below the bear minimum.

Check out this video:


There is comment below the video with over 700 likes by danblack2728:
"Hi Bri, I was an automatic transmission engineer that designed and developed automatics for 35 years. I'm also a small engine mechanic hobbiest that have repaired over 10,000 small engines. Anyway, when I worked at Chrysler I got involved with new ATF programs for our transmissions and had several meetings with our oil additive suppliers. Anyway we talked extensively about 2 cycle oil additive packages just for my own interest. They told me that the air cooled oils contains ash in it and it's not used in marine applications due to fouling issues of the plug at idle since many boaters troll with their outboard motors. Ash content is very durable for high speed and high temp 2 stroke applications especially when mixing at 50:1. They told me marine oils are fine for air cooled motors if you just run it richer at like 32:1 or 40:1.
I always use marine oil at 32:1 for my chainsaws and blowers and have never had a problem. The additive suppliers also said that any TCW3 is fine because they have to pass the same tests as any other oil which is the 70 hp Evinrude motor run for 100 hours at 4000 rpms mixed at 100:1. Therefore I buy the cheap Supertech 2 cycle oil from Walmart. The only difference is the smell may be a little different however performance is the same.
So the moral of the story is you are correct. If spending big dollars for high tech oil is your thing, then do it. However if you run marine 2 cycle oil just run it a little richer for your air cooled 2 strokes. BTW I run my outboard at 40:1."

 

[ripcord]

JASO FB 2 cycle oil is NOT the same as SAE 30 weight oil. Not even close.

 

[Japanese]

Most mineral oils certified as JASO FB have kinematic viscosity @100°C (212°F): 10 cSt or higher, which makes their viscosity the same as SAE30. Their properties don't have anything to do with the tech data of SAE30 oil, but their viscosity is the same or similar to SAE30 at 100°C.

Below are three different examples of mineral oils certified as JASO FB.
If you have any data sheets of mineral/conventional JASO FB oils, you can post them too.

Stihl HP
Kinematic viscosity @100°C: 10.3 - 12 cSt (page 5)
https://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/MSDS/STIHL2CYHP.pdf

Castrol Go! 2T Durable protection
Kinematic viscosity @100°C: 10.5 - 11.5 cSt (page 5)
https://msdspds.castrol.com/ussds/a...EB794C4094380258A690057F4E0/$File/3047177.pdf
https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/...72FDB92802588770041DB81/$File/wepp-cg46kb.pdf

Motul 100 2T
Kinematic viscosity @100°C: 9.9 cSt
https://azupim01.motul.com/media/motulData/DO/base/100_2t_en_fr_motul.pdf

 

[ripcord]

Viscosity is only one part of the story. The additives and chemistry are quite different.

 

[Japanese]

I'm comparing mainly kinematic viscosity at 100°C (212°F) and why low viscosity oils are run at lower ration vs high viscosity oils that can be run at 50:1 or even 100:1 in lawn equipment. It answers the OP question why TC-W3 oils need to run at lower ratios (32:1, 25:1) compared to dedicated OPE oils.
The kinematic viscosity is measured in the same way for all oils regardless if they are 4-stroke, 2-stroke, mineral, synthetic blend or 100% synthetic. It's the oil flow at 100°C (212°F). So in that regard I compared 2-stroke oils with SAE oils.

 

[Japanese]

I used TCW3 oils in my old air cooled snowmobile engines premixed at 40:1 with no issues and still use it in my OPE at 40:1
I prefer full synth. oils over semi oils. No one says how much synth. is in a semi. oil.

Marine and snowmobile oils has similar properties. They are both designed as low viscosity for flowing at low temperatures. Both marine/PWC and snowmobiles have similar large displacement 2-stroke engines, regardless of the fact the the snowmobiles are air cooled. Their large displacement 2-3 cyl. engines allow them to dissipate heat much better than small 1 cyl. lawn equipment engines. Also you run the snowmobiles always when the ambient temp. is bellow 32°F, not at 95°F in the middle of the summer. Snowmobiles just like boats/PWC don't run over 8,000 RPM.
There is no small displacement snowmobile engines like all the lawn equipment engines and that makes big difference in their cooling properties and lubrication, regardless of that that both are air cooled.