Paypal seller portection and Ebay dispute

[matrass]

Hello and good morning everybody. was wondering if anybody has been in a situation where they needed to use the Paypal seller protection and how did it go for you. I sold an item on Ebay recently. seller paid on 6-18 and item was shipped on 6-20. sent the item usps priority mail with tracking number. never heard back from the buyer and I see that the item was delivered on 6-22-2013 at 1:01pm according to USPS. I ended up leaving positive feedback for the buyer on 7-5. yesterday I see the buyer opens a case that they did not receive the item. this is the first time I had heard this from the buyer. I sent the tracking information to Ebay with my note stating item was shipped to the address in Paypal. to me it seems like the buyer just wants their money back and to keep the item, especially since they waited to open a claim until after I left them good feedback. has anybody gone through this ? why do I have the feeling that Paypal is going to refund the money to the buyer ? I read the Paypal seller agreement and it seemed like I would be covered until I read that the agreement did not seem to be valid on an Ebay transactions. I have been selling on Ebay for a long time with over 600 transactions with 100% positive feedback.

 

[TechnoLoGs]

Originally Posted By: matrass
Hello and good morning everybody. was wondering if anybody has been in a situation where they needed to use the Paypal seller protection and how did it go for you. I sold an item on Ebay recently. seller paid on 6-18 and item was shipped on 6-20. sent the item usps priority mail with tracking number. never heard back from the buyer and I see that the item was delivered on 6-22-2013 at 1:01pm according to USPS. I ended up leaving positive feedback for the buyer on 7-5. yesterday I see the buyer opens a case that they did not receive the item. this is the first time I had heard this from the buyer. I sent the tracking information to Ebay with my note stating item was shipped to the address in Paypal. to me it seems like the buyer just wants their money back and to keep the item, especially since they waited to open a claim until after I left them good feedback. has anybody gone through this ? why do I have the feeling that Paypal is going to refund the money to the buyer ? I read the Paypal seller agreement and it seemed like I would be covered until I read that the agreement did not seem to be valid on an Ebay transactions. I have been selling on Ebay for a long time with over 600 transactions with 100% positive feedback.


This type of stuff happens a lot, and I can tell you that I have had to take losses to keep my 100% positive seller rating. MANY sellers want to create a problem, where there is none.. TO get money back, AND keep the item. Especially if they feel that you are a "nice" seller.

I sold my TP-610C AC/DC car charger for an RC Car. Bought it new for $110 from a fellow from Texas; never used. The next year, still in unopened, new condition, I sold it. Got up to either $65 or $80 from an RC enthusuiast, form Massachusetts. I had to open the box to take pics; I described the item ad nauseum, to the best of my understanding since I was unfamiliar with what I was selling, and with no less than 11 pics. Buyer paid; I shipped.

Three days later, I see a dispute that "The item is not as described" (!!!) and he wants his money back. I agreed to refund, if he would send back the item. I though ti was going t get screwed, as I refunded the money, and he had it.. So, he could have just not send it. However, he did, and thanked me. I got lucky.. he had possession AND the money, AFTER initiating a claim. It is how buyers play the system.

I ended up selling it for way, way less. It is as if I don't even try to make a profit on EBay anymore. Too much can go wrong.

The system is set up to protect the buyers. I have bought for things that never showed up; Ebay MAKES you wait three weeks, or so. THEN they CONTACT the seller; then the seller can drag their feet for a looong time.. i think it was about 6-7 weeks I got refunded.

And, when my card got stolen in Philly the week of my birthday (happy birthday to me,) someone ran up like $600 of charges. HSBC mailed me the fraud affidavit yesterday and says they may still ask me additional things....

 

[TechnoLoGs]

Quote:
why do I have the feeling that Paypal is going to refund the money to the buyer ?


After several unintelligible e-mails and confusing requests for information and dollar amounts that do not look quite right, that is what PayPal does.

Use them every week, but now am in arrears about $2100 to them, form the fraud that the person did that had my info; well, because they did it in the same area/zip code that I live, thy said it "matches my patterns" and no fraud case for you, pay up. Nevermind that I had my card stolen and realized it three days after, when I went to buy fast food and did not see the card. :angry:

^^ I think that happened on my birthday.

 

[eljefino]

As a seller you need to either

1) get USPS insurance or
2) self-insure

against missing mail.

Although many ebay vendors make insurance optional, the buyer declining to purchase it does not make them liable.

A good option is to get the insurance (and not even tell buyers) so if an item goes "missing" they can perjure themselves to the Postal Inspectors, and you can get your money back.

I've been on the other end of things; had tracked priority mail make it to "my door", which was probably a neighbor's snowbank. Vendor said they had tracking. I opened a case with my credit card company; they took my side; as they usually tend to do. Vendor ate it.

 

[matrass]

Originally Posted By: TechnoLoGs
Originally Posted By: matrass
Hello and good morning everybody. was wondering if anybody has been in a situation where they needed to use the Paypal seller protection and how did it go for you. I sold an item on Ebay recently. seller paid on 6-18 and item was shipped on 6-20. sent the item usps priority mail with tracking number. never heard back from the buyer and I see that the item was delivered on 6-22-2013 at 1:01pm according to USPS. I ended up leaving positive feedback for the buyer on 7-5. yesterday I see the buyer opens a case that they did not receive the item. this is the first time I had heard this from the buyer. I sent the tracking information to Ebay with my note stating item was shipped to the address in Paypal. to me it seems like the buyer just wants their money back and to keep the item, especially since they waited to open a claim until after I left them good feedback. has anybody gone through this ? why do I have the feeling that Paypal is going to refund the money to the buyer ? I read the Paypal seller agreement and it seemed like I would be covered until I read that the agreement did not seem to be valid on an Ebay transactions. I have been selling on Ebay for a long time with over 600 transactions with 100% positive feedback.


This type of stuff happens a lot, and I can tell you that I have had to take losses to keep my 100% positive seller rating. MANY sellers want to create a problem, where there is none.. TO get money back, AND keep the item. Especially if they feel that you are a "nice" seller.

I sold my TP-610C AC/DC car charger for an RC Car. Bought it new for $110 from a fellow from Texas; never used. The next year, still in unopened, new condition, I sold it. Got up to either $65 or $80 from an RC enthusuiast, form Massachusetts. I had to open the box to take pics; I described the item ad nauseum, to the best of my understanding since I was unfamiliar with what I was selling, and with no less than 11 pics. Buyer paid; I shipped.

Three days later, I see a dispute that "The item is not as described" (!!!) and he wants his money back. I agreed to refund, if he would send back the item. I though ti was going t get screwed, as I refunded the money, and he had it.. So, he could have just not send it. However, he did, and thanked me. I got lucky.. he had possession AND the money, AFTER initiating a claim. It is how buyers play the system.

I ended up selling it for way, way less. It is as if I don't even try to make a profit on EBay anymore. Too much can go wrong.

The system is set up to protect the buyers. I have bought for things that never showed up; Ebay MAKES you wait three weeks, or so. THEN they CONTACT the seller; then the seller can drag their feet for a looong time.. i think it was about 6-7 weeks I got refunded.

And, when my card got stolen in Philly the week of my birthday (happy birthday to me,) someone ran up like $600 of charges. HSBC mailed me the fraud affidavit yesterday and says they may still ask me additional things....



Wow sorry to hear about the fiasco on your birthday that really stinks. I know what you mean about people trying to get a partial or full refund by stating that an item was not as described. I agree it is getting to the point that you can not trust people anymore and that is a shame.guess we have to just throw stuff out even if somebody can use it ?

 

[99Saturn]

Typically, yes ebay is stacked against the seller, but in my experience if you cover your bases its tough to get screwed. I haven't had the shipping claim with a tracking number happen to me, but have had other issues with buyers.

Just keep all communication within ebay, if you get a private communication from the buyer, reference that in the case notes. Print screenshots out or print to a pdf for records. I don't remember all the case rules, but once a case is open, you as the seller get like a week to respond, then the buyer gets the same and then ebay makes a call. Be prompt in responses, etc. Although the deck is stacked against the seller, you have a decent case.

 

[cwing6]

I used to sell and buy on Ebay (>100 ratings, 100% positive) all the time but not anymore. Way too much of a hassle. A couple of years ago I purchased a used set of golf clubs for over $300 from someone in the US. In return, I received a silk handkerchief from China. As it turns out, someone from China intercepted by payment and the auction was cancelled by Ebay. However, Ebay refused to assist on getting my $300 back. They said since I received something for the payment, I was not eligible for their buyer protection plan. My CC company was a great assistance and they refunded the money under their fraud protection program so I was made whole. I havent had much use for Ebay since then. I have other Ebay horror stories but this was the most egregious. And despite this story, I've had many more issues as a seller with purchasers using tactics similar to the OP. Are they just stupid or crooks? Sometimes its hard to tell. Good luck in your situation.

 

[matrass]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
As a seller you need to either

1) get USPS insurance or
2) self-insure

against missing mail.

Although many ebay vendors make insurance optional, the buyer declining to purchase it does not make them liable.

A good option is to get the insurance (and not even tell buyers) so if an item goes "missing" they can perjure themselves to the Postal Inspectors, and you can get your money back.

I've been on the other end of things; had tracked priority mail make it to "my door", which was probably a neighbor's snowbank. Vendor said they had tracking. I opened a case with my credit card company; they took my side; as they usually tend to do. Vendor ate it.



I will have to see if my wife got insurance on the item. more than likely she did not since it was $75 + shipping. I usually get insurance it an item is $100 or over. looks like I will be eating this one ,that sucks big time. still hard to believe that if insurance is optional and the buyer did not request it they should be held liable not the seller. TechnoLoGs , sorry to hear about all the [censored] that you are going through, that must be a nightmare.

 

[99Saturn]

Originally Posted By: eljefino

I've been on the other end of things; had tracked priority mail make it to "my door", which was probably a neighbor's snowbank. Vendor said they had tracking. I opened a case with my credit card company; they took my side; as they usually tend to do. Vendor ate it.


Just curious was this an ebay item or elsewhere (wondering if you went through ebay/paypal first and what the results were)?

 

[matrass]

Originally Posted By: cwing6
I used to sell and buy on Ebay (>100 ratings, 100% positive) all the time but not anymore. Way too much of a hassle. A couple of years ago I purchased a used set of golf clubs for over $300 from someone in the US. In return, I received a silk handkerchief from China. As it turns out, someone from China intercepted by payment and the auction was cancelled by Ebay. However, Ebay refused to assist on getting my $300 back. They said since I received something for the payment, I was not eligible for their buyer protection plan. My CC company was a great assistance and they refunded the money under their fraud protection program so I was made whole. I havent had much use for Ebay since then. I have other Ebay horror stories but this was the most egregious. And despite this story, I've had many more issues as a seller with purchasers using tactics similar to the OP. Are they just stupid or crooks? Sometimes its hard to tell. Good luck in your situation.



sorry to hear about what happened to you, good thing you used your credit card in your transaction. sad that Ebay always takes the buyers side , so they do not detract future sales. besides selling on Ebay have sold on here and a couple of auto details sites, and this is the first time I have this claim. Paypal froze the money so I have not doubt they will just fork it over the buyer no matter what I say. guess we need to start hand delivering these items and have the buyer sign a legal document upon receipt lol ! I sent the buyer an email last night and have not heard back from them. funny how they never contacted me once that the item did not show. thinking I will scan a copy of the USPS receipt and email that to Ebay, maybe that will help out.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: matrass
Originally Posted By: eljefino
As a seller you need to either

1) get USPS insurance or
2) self-insure

against missing mail.

Although many ebay vendors make insurance optional, the buyer declining to purchase it does not make them liable.

A good option is to get the insurance (and not even tell buyers) so if an item goes "missing" they can perjure themselves to the Postal Inspectors, and you can get your money back.

I've been on the other end of things; had tracked priority mail make it to "my door", which was probably a neighbor's snowbank. Vendor said they had tracking. I opened a case with my credit card company; they took my side; as they usually tend to do. Vendor ate it.



I will have to see if my wife got insurance on the item. more than likely she did not since it was $75 + shipping. I usually get insurance it an item is $100 or over. looks like I will be eating this one ,that sucks big time. still hard to believe that if insurance is optional and the buyer did not request it they should be held liable not the seller. TechnoLoGs , sorry to hear about all the [censored] that you are going through, that must be a nightmare.


I wouldn't eat anything. You have tracking info showing the item was delivered. Stand your ground and follow through on the dispute process. Even PayPal with how bias they are against the seller can NOT force a refund on a delivered item. You are NOT required to buy insurance either. If the buyer leaves negative feedback you have the ability to respond and have it show - you can point out item WAS delivered and verified by the carrier.

Also, this is a classic example of why I never leave a buyer feedback until I know the item was received and they are happy with the transaction. Leaving them feedback before they leave it for you, or you are sure they got it and everything is kosher, takes away some of your power.

 

[matrass]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: matrass
Originally Posted By: eljefino
As a seller you need to either

1) get USPS insurance or
2) self-insure

against missing mail.

Although many ebay vendors make insurance optional, the buyer declining to purchase it does not make them liable.

A good option is to get the insurance (and not even tell buyers) so if an item goes "missing" they can perjure themselves to the Postal Inspectors, and you can get your money back.

I've been on the other end of things; had tracked priority mail make it to "my door", which was probably a neighbor's snowbank. Vendor said they had tracking. I opened a case with my credit card company; they took my side; as they usually tend to do. Vendor ate it.



I will have to see if my wife got insurance on the item. more than likely she did not since it was $75 + shipping. I usually get insurance it an item is $100 or over. looks like I will be eating this one ,that sucks big time. still hard to believe that if insurance is optional and the buyer did not request it they should be held liable not the seller. TechnoLoGs , sorry to hear about all the [censored] that you are going through, that must be a nightmare.


I wouldn't eat anything. You have tracking info showing the item was delivered. Stand your ground and follow through on the dispute process. Even PayPal with how bias they are against the seller can NOT force a refund on a delivered item. You are NOT required to buy insurance either. If the buyer leaves negative feedback you have the ability to respond and have it show - you can point out item WAS delivered and verified by the carrier.

Also, this is a classic example of why I never leave a buyer feedback until I know the item was received and they are happy with the transaction. Leaving them feedback before they leave it for you, or you are sure they got it and everything is kosher, takes away some of your power.



You have some good thoughts there and I agree with you 100%
I have not been leaving feedback for people until they have left it for me recently , so I have learned my lesson on this one ( not sure why I changed my pattern this time, guess it happens ) I would say like you stated that if the buyer did not ask for insurance they should be the one to fight with USPS about the package not making to their doorstep as them claim. I am going to make the copy of the receipt from USPS and send that to the open case as proof, can not hurt my case any.

 

[CamCam]

It is possible that it was delivered to the wrong house. I had UPS deliver a package to the wrong house (so tracking was updated as delivered), the UPS driver went to the house where he said he delivered it but was unable to retrieve the package after several attempts. Eventually UPS reimbursed the seller and the seller sent me another.

 

[TechnoLoGs]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: matrass
Originally Posted By: eljefino
As a seller you need to either

1) get USPS insurance or
2) self-insure

against missing mail.

Although many ebay vendors make insurance optional, the buyer declining to purchase it does not make them liable.

A good option is to get the insurance (and not even tell buyers) so if an item goes "missing" they can perjure themselves to the Postal Inspectors, and you can get your money back.

I've been on the other end of things; had tracked priority mail make it to "my door", which was probably a neighbor's snowbank. Vendor said they had tracking. I opened a case with my credit card company; they took my side; as they usually tend to do. Vendor ate it.



I will have to see if my wife got insurance on the item. more than likely she did not since it was $75 + shipping. I usually get insurance it an item is $100 or over. looks like I will be eating this one ,that sucks big time. still hard to believe that if insurance is optional and the buyer did not request it they should be held liable not the seller. TechnoLoGs , sorry to hear about all the [censored] that you are going through, that must be a nightmare.


I wouldn't eat anything. You have tracking info showing the item was delivered. Stand your ground and follow through on the dispute process. Even PayPal with how bias they are against the seller can NOT force a refund on a delivered item. You are NOT required to buy insurance either. If the buyer leaves negative feedback you have the ability to respond and have it show - you can point out item WAS delivered and verified by the carrier.

Also, this is a classic example of why I never leave a buyer feedback until I know the item was received and they are happy with the transaction. Leaving them feedback before they leave it for you, or you are sure they got it and everything is kosher, takes away some of your power.


While I am not so optimistic about what you presented as to PayPal (they can hold things hostage and force plenty, it's more like binding arbitration and if you look closely they are just a middleman and say some outrageous things at Customer Service sometimes,) I can tell you that I left positive feedback for that $300 engine from Clearwater Auto Parts in Minnesota that had the injectors stolen out of it, and then the engine had a rod knock.. and I don't have the cash to ship it back, so, its a paperweight, awaiting a running truck to bring it to a scrap metal place.

They got positive feedback for probably the worst, no picture listed, described as running (I think, I am not checking,) rod-knocking-est engine (sounded like shaking sand when it ran!! .. AND rod knock!!..) - engine, ever.

My positive feedback lets tte next buyer think they are getting something that works. So, I am at fault for furthering it, too...

 

[TechnoLoGs]

Originally Posted By: CamCam
It is possible that it was delivered to the wrong house. I had UPS deliver a package to the wrong house (so tracking was updated as delivered), the UPS driver went to the house where he said he delivered it but was unable to retrieve the package after several attempts. Eventually UPS reimbursed the seller and the seller sent me another.


Same here. I had two/three sellers mail me something; never got it. Turns out, the Post Office itself LOST the packages, but said they were delivered. !!!

6-7 weeks later ,the sellers issued me full refund.

Then the items showed up a week or so after that.

Not only that, but we have had a package for some industrial company (?) have the same exact street address, but off by ONE DIGIT in the zip code, get delivered, UPS, to our house.

Strange.

 

[TallPaul]

Been a few years but I bought two CDs on Ebay for $36 and they turned out to be bootlegs. It was clear because the print on the CD backs was split and misaligned. Besides that, they came without jewel cases and home printed inserts. Also the sound quality was terrible on one, almost unlistenable,and poor to fair on the other. I made a case and got $30 back. I am thinking it was a PayPal case because I always use PayPal on Ebay. They (not the seller) actually asked me how much I wanted refunded and I shot for the $30 figuring the $6 covers the guy's shipping and raw materials. Probably should have asked for all of it. But I got wise and see bootleggers selling CDs all the time on Ebay.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: 99Saturn
Originally Posted By: eljefino

I've been on the other end of things; had tracked priority mail make it to "my door", which was probably a neighbor's snowbank. Vendor said they had tracking. I opened a case with my credit card company; they took my side; as they usually tend to do. Vendor ate it.


Just curious was this an ebay item or elsewhere (wondering if you went through ebay/paypal first and what the results were)?


It was something of my wifes, not ebay, some storefront like etsy.com. No paypal, just regular credit card and its protections. Of course you can use the cc chargeback if paypal doesn't help you, but that makes paypal Very Angry. (tm)

 

[Artem]

In response to the OP's post... Once the buyer opened the not received case, ebay will ask you for the tracking number as proof that it was shipped and delivered. This alone should have you covered as ebay will see that you shipped the item and it was delivered.

Now, whether it was delivered to the correct address or not is another story and the buyer could very possibly be saying the truth that they never received anything.

This is why I ALWAYS;

A: email the buyer after receiving payment and confirm the shipping address shown in the Order Details. That way I have it in writing that they confirmed the address.

B: PRINT out that address (better and more legible), then proceed to write that address on the package itself and cover that up with a piece of paper containing the printed address. This insures that if by some miracle, the two layers of tape I put on to cover the address label somehow gets ripped off, the address is also written underneath...

C: ALWAYS insure the package. This protects YOU!

I've been selling on ebay for 11 years now and have an ebay store, raking in 60k per year and growing. I've had my share of difficult buyers and items that were BROKEN upon delivery. An insurance claim later, I have the funds to either refund the buyer, or do a partial refund for repairs, compensation for the slight damage, etc.

I also suggest you CALL ebay and speak with a rep regarding the case. It goes down on your record that you called and i strongly believe it helps in the event that ebay must step in if the case is escalated and make a decision.

 

[Artem]

Originally Posted By: TechnoLoGs
This type of stuff happens a lot, and I can tell you that I have had to take losses to keep my 100% positive seller rating. MANY sellers want to create a problem, where there is none.. TO get money back, AND keep the item. Especially if they feel that you are a "nice" seller.

I sold my TP-610C AC/DC car charger for an RC Car. Bought it new for $110 from a fellow from Texas; never used. The next year, still in unopened, new condition, I sold it. Got up to either $65 or $80 from an RC enthusuiast, form Massachusetts. I had to open the box to take pics; I described the item ad nauseum, to the best of my understanding since I was unfamiliar with what I was selling, and with no less than 11 pics. Buyer paid; I shipped.

Three days later, I see a dispute that "The item is not as described" (!!!) and he wants his money back. I agreed to refund, if he would send back the item. I though ti was going t get screwed, as I refunded the money, and he had it.. So, he could have just not send it. However, he did, and thanked me. I got lucky.. he had possession AND the money, AFTER initiating a claim. It is how buyers play the system.


Ebay's policy states that the buyer must return the item FIRST. You then have 3 days to inspect the item and insure that it's in the same condition that you shipped it (unless damaged) AND THEN you issue a refund.

You don't issue a refund first and then pray that the buyer is honest and ships you the item... What's wrong with you?

That was YOUR mistake right there and it could have gone wrong had the buyer not send you anything. Ebay wouldn't have helped you either because you didn't follow proper return protocol. You got lucky that the buyer returned the item.

 

[stephen9666]

To the OP-

You have tracking showing it was delivered, which is basically all you can do. They could rule against you, but so far you've done everything correctly.

Now, it could be different if the buyer is claiming he received an empty box. If the package is damaged in transit and the item is missing, then the buyer has a solid case, even if there's tracking showing it was delivered.

What exactly is the buyer claiming. Does he say he didn't receive it at all or that he got an empty box?