If I can't feel a pull, steering wheel off center, or other bad driving symptom, I surely would have caught tire wear probs when I ck tire pressure or at the very latest rotated them at 7500 miles.
Out Of Alignment From Factory?
- Thread starter The Critic
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You guys should tour the auto assembly plant and see how the alignment is done.
When I worked at Chrysler in the '60's we were building a car every 54 seconds !! That didn't give the guy on the alignment station much time to do his job.
I was always amazed that all the nuts and bolts were tight on the chassis.. well, most of the time they were.
When I worked at Chrysler in the '60's we were building a car every 54 seconds !! That didn't give the guy on the alignment station much time to do his job.
I was always amazed that all the nuts and bolts were tight on the chassis.. well, most of the time they were.
Originally Posted By: Papa Bear
You guys should tour the auto assembly plant and see how the alignment is done.
When I worked at Chrysler in the '60's we were building a car every 54 seconds !! That didn't give the guy on the alignment station much time to do his job.
I was always amazed that all the nuts and bolts were tight on the chassis.. well, most of the time they were.
Tolerances and other specs have improved a little in fifty years...
You guys should tour the auto assembly plant and see how the alignment is done.
When I worked at Chrysler in the '60's we were building a car every 54 seconds !! That didn't give the guy on the alignment station much time to do his job.
I was always amazed that all the nuts and bolts were tight on the chassis.. well, most of the time they were.
Tolerances and other specs have improved a little in fifty years...
Grandparents 09 Prius was out of align from the factory. Took 20+k for them to figure it out. After a $40 alignment and new tires they say it drives better than it ever did.
Originally Posted By: MrCritical
Originally Posted By: Papa Bear
You guys should tour the auto assembly plant and see how the alignment is done.
When I worked at Chrysler in the '60's we were building a car every 54 seconds !! That didn't give the guy on the alignment station much time to do his job.
I was always amazed that all the nuts and bolts were tight on the chassis.. well, most of the time they were.
Tolerances and other specs have improved a little in fifty years...
That's not my point. Point is to get it into your super fancy specs in 54 seconds...
The boys could set the door gaps and hardtop glass on a Chrysler 4dr in 54 seconds too, with a 4' 2x4 and a large hammer. That's called "finesse"...
Originally Posted By: Papa Bear
You guys should tour the auto assembly plant and see how the alignment is done.
When I worked at Chrysler in the '60's we were building a car every 54 seconds !! That didn't give the guy on the alignment station much time to do his job.
I was always amazed that all the nuts and bolts were tight on the chassis.. well, most of the time they were.
Tolerances and other specs have improved a little in fifty years...
That's not my point. Point is to get it into your super fancy specs in 54 seconds...
The boys could set the door gaps and hardtop glass on a Chrysler 4dr in 54 seconds too, with a 4' 2x4 and a large hammer. That's called "finesse"...
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
once again:
Left camber +.25, right camber -.75.
This is the #1 problem.
But the camber values are still within spec, if I'm reading this diagram correctly. The only thing that's out of spec is the front toe, as Capri pointed out. So, wouldn't the front toe be the #1 problem here, camber being #2?
NO.
U see the camber is within spec but any person that does alignment knows they are too far apart to be proper as far as a straight driving car.
Also toe is always the last and final adjustment u make when doing an alignment. So he has to adjust the camber to be closer to zero then adjust toe
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
once again:
Left camber +.25, right camber -.75.
This is the #1 problem.
But the camber values are still within spec, if I'm reading this diagram correctly. The only thing that's out of spec is the front toe, as Capri pointed out. So, wouldn't the front toe be the #1 problem here, camber being #2?
NO.
U see the camber is within spec but any person that does alignment knows they are too far apart to be proper as far as a straight driving car.
Also toe is always the last and final adjustment u make when doing an alignment. So he has to adjust the camber to be closer to zero then adjust toe
Hmmm. I wonder if my sears will give me a free alignment check. I haven't had it touched since new (130K miles ago). Still drives straight, no pulling, and tires wear evenly.
I am hesitant to take it somewhere to have it aligned, but getting it measured would be interesting.
I am hesitant to take it somewhere to have it aligned, but getting it measured would be interesting.
Of course the camber is fixable.
I do not know the intimate details of your exact car.
But slotting the struts is very safe and an excellent way to adjust things.
A camber bolt [crash bolt] can work well.
And for your particular case, loosening the subframe and shifting it over will fix this. Then tighten the whee out of it.
Sound major? Not really, Loosen about 4 big bolts and pry it over.
I do not know the intimate details of your exact car.
But slotting the struts is very safe and an excellent way to adjust things.
A camber bolt [crash bolt] can work well.
And for your particular case, loosening the subframe and shifting it over will fix this. Then tighten the whee out of it.
Sound major? Not really, Loosen about 4 big bolts and pry it over.
According to Toyota's service manual for this car, there should be no more than 0.75 degrees of cross-camber between the two front wheels. From our guesstimation, mine exceeds that.
Let's see what the dealer says about this on Saturday. I will keep everyone posted.
Let's see what the dealer says about this on Saturday. I will keep everyone posted.
RF toe was out, but LF toe was not.
Camber was fine.
Car handles much better now, but they left the steering wheel slightly off-center to the right. So back to the dealer tomorrow...another 1 hr drive.
If the camber was fine, how come the chart shows it is way off?
That sucks.
Luckily my alignment was done well the first time around. Steering wheel is bang on 100% like it should be.
Luckily my alignment was done well the first time around. Steering wheel is bang on 100% like it should be.
Same rack.
Here are the issues I'm noticing:
- after today's alignment, the car drives fantastic. Like day/night compared to yesterday. It now feels BMW solid on the highway. Handles great. This doesn't make any sense because yesterday's front toe settings were correct as well.
- Rear toe measured on Sat differs significantly compared to today. Only theory I can come up with is that today's tech did not properly "center" the rear torsion beam prior to drive it onto the alignment rack. At this dealer the alignment rack requires a 90 deg turn since it is at the end of a row of bays.
- Car doesn't coast as freely as it used to. It was fine on Sat and not today.
Only real solution at this point, that I can think of, is to exercise my Firestone lifetime alignment policy and have another alignment performed.
Thoughts?
That's the definition of insanity: "Doing the same thing over and over ... expecting different results"
Hunter Racks are like Blackstone UOA. Evertime you drive it on the BEFORE will be different. Also note that 0.20 degress is less than 1/16th a rotation of the tire rod end. And 0.1 is the expected change when you tighten the jam nut on the tire rod end.
As the car ride height settles down, the toe will change. Put a driver (weight) in the car on the rack everything will change. The low buck Toyota vitz/prius mac strut front suspenson barely holds a wheel on the chassis - nevermind holding an alignment for a day. The tech has to compensate for this rather than "just hitting the target spec". The slightest imperceptable nudge of the steering wheel will change the left and right toe #s but not total toe. For general use, I usually hit for the slightest total toe in I can get: .05-.10. I dont like cross camber or castor as crown compensation.
As the car ride height settles down, the toe will change. Put a driver (weight) in the car on the rack everything will change. The low buck Toyota vitz/prius mac strut front suspenson barely holds a wheel on the chassis - nevermind holding an alignment for a day. The tech has to compensate for this rather than "just hitting the target spec". The slightest imperceptable nudge of the steering wheel will change the left and right toe #s but not total toe. For general use, I usually hit for the slightest total toe in I can get: .05-.10. I dont like cross camber or castor as crown compensation.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Mass production has its limits. I'd be very surprised if they actually put every vehicle on an alignment rack- probably assembling to a set procedure that *usually* gets the alignment within spec. But not always.
I think this is very true. I FWD cars with struts used to have elongated strut mounting holes in the strut perches, didn't they? Now, you really can't mess with the strut up there. Don't they call that "total net build" or something like that. Tolerances are "close enough", but it takes other hardware (like a cam bolt to replace a straight bolt) to change it if required.
Mass production has its limits. I'd be very surprised if they actually put every vehicle on an alignment rack- probably assembling to a set procedure that *usually* gets the alignment within spec. But not always.
I think this is very true. I FWD cars with struts used to have elongated strut mounting holes in the strut perches, didn't they? Now, you really can't mess with the strut up there. Don't they call that "total net build" or something like that. Tolerances are "close enough", but it takes other hardware (like a cam bolt to replace a straight bolt) to change it if required.
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Only real solution at this point, that I can think of, is to exercise my Firestone lifetime alignment policy and have another alignment performed.
Thoughts?
At this point, I would start doing my own toe adjustments. At this point, everything is so close, tweaking the toe won't mess with anything else. I've done toe adjustments to a number of my cars, with good success. They have your Prius significantly toed-in. You're right: this will give you lightning-quick reflexes, but increase your rolling resistance because you're scrubbing tires down the road.
So back the toe out just a bit at a time. If your steering wheel is straight, back the toe out in equal amounts on each side. Start with 1/8th of a turn on the outer TRE on each side. See what effect that has. Monitor tire wear closely. You can get toe EXTREMELY close to what you want just by monitoring tire wear and driving dynamics.
This also demonstrates just how much an alignment affects how a car drives, and how much a good one can wake a car up. With you being toed-out before, you probably had significant lag in turn-in. Now with toe-in, you're driving a go cart. Some are quick to write off a something as "not fun to drive", when a good alignment can often change the whole ball game.
Only real solution at this point, that I can think of, is to exercise my Firestone lifetime alignment policy and have another alignment performed.
Thoughts?
At this point, I would start doing my own toe adjustments. At this point, everything is so close, tweaking the toe won't mess with anything else. I've done toe adjustments to a number of my cars, with good success. They have your Prius significantly toed-in. You're right: this will give you lightning-quick reflexes, but increase your rolling resistance because you're scrubbing tires down the road.
So back the toe out just a bit at a time. If your steering wheel is straight, back the toe out in equal amounts on each side. Start with 1/8th of a turn on the outer TRE on each side. See what effect that has. Monitor tire wear closely. You can get toe EXTREMELY close to what you want just by monitoring tire wear and driving dynamics.
This also demonstrates just how much an alignment affects how a car drives, and how much a good one can wake a car up. With you being toed-out before, you probably had significant lag in turn-in. Now with toe-in, you're driving a go cart. Some are quick to write off a something as "not fun to drive", when a good alignment can often change the whole ball game.
I believe most auto factories check the alignment at the end of the line. But the tolerances are so tight probably only the toe needs adjusted and on a new vehicle often is the only thing readily adjustable. Some factories have such sophisticated alignment machines that the car is driven on rollers and aligned dynamically. I've seen at the Corvette factory they are aligned this way. On the car wheel balance and run out is sometimes measured. Usually it's hard to beat the factory wheel alignment and balance. The car probably got out of alignment later on, although the cross camber and cross caster while in spec isn't the tightest ever.
my 94 camry and 2004 highlander were both out when new.
the camry pulled, and the highlander scrubbed rubber off in 3K miles and feathered the tires,
the camry pulled, and the highlander scrubbed rubber off in 3K miles and feathered the tires,
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