Optimal kinematic viscosity for mimimal wear?
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Originally Posted By: AEHaas
Dragsters start out with a 70 grade oil but end up with almost straight fuel as oil by the end of the strip. This is why they start out so thick.
Thin oil, a 20 grade is best for all around use:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1543003#Post1543003
aehaas
Uh, which kind of dragsters??? Are we really comparing Top Fuel dragsters to street cars? Fine, my GN is representative of every car, even grandma's Crown Vic, and they all need a 20w-50 to survive. That makes as much sense.
I've worked with mechanics from a Top Fuel team and I can tell you 100% that fuel dilution is not the only reason they use a thick oil.
20wt is the best for all around use?? Are you serious? So you can really make a blanket statement using meaningless UOAs about all cars?? You also don't believe HTHS is important.
This is the kind of nonsense that some unsuspecting person is going to believe because you're a doctor and own a few nice cars. It's unfortunate.
Dragsters start out with a 70 grade oil but end up with almost straight fuel as oil by the end of the strip. This is why they start out so thick.
Thin oil, a 20 grade is best for all around use:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1543003#Post1543003
aehaas
Uh, which kind of dragsters??? Are we really comparing Top Fuel dragsters to street cars? Fine, my GN is representative of every car, even grandma's Crown Vic, and they all need a 20w-50 to survive. That makes as much sense.
I've worked with mechanics from a Top Fuel team and I can tell you 100% that fuel dilution is not the only reason they use a thick oil.
20wt is the best for all around use?? Are you serious? So you can really make a blanket statement using meaningless UOAs about all cars?? You also don't believe HTHS is important.
This is the kind of nonsense that some unsuspecting person is going to believe because you're a doctor and own a few nice cars. It's unfortunate.
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
'New word for me, thanks.
Dr. you are my hero! For at least a short period of time, you have "made my day"!!! Hey, I'm neither Clint, nor Dirty Harry, but for a brief interval ... well, you get the idea!
Anyway, if you haven't googled it yet, "defilade" is where you want to be if somebody is shooting at you, and the kids who are relying upon you to get them home in one piece...
And just in case there's any hint of "wrong" tone in my post, I must say, as a 29-year Marine, those of you who earned an M.D. or a D.O. are every bit as much heros as that 18-year-old Marine, Soldier, Sailor, or Airman who has the 'nads to climb out of a fighting hole and pursue Osama and his minions.
He's your hero because he thinks thinner is better without anything to back it up???
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
'New word for me, thanks.
Dr. you are my hero! For at least a short period of time, you have "made my day"!!! Hey, I'm neither Clint, nor Dirty Harry, but for a brief interval ... well, you get the idea!
Anyway, if you haven't googled it yet, "defilade" is where you want to be if somebody is shooting at you, and the kids who are relying upon you to get them home in one piece...
And just in case there's any hint of "wrong" tone in my post, I must say, as a 29-year Marine, those of you who earned an M.D. or a D.O. are every bit as much heros as that 18-year-old Marine, Soldier, Sailor, or Airman who has the 'nads to climb out of a fighting hole and pursue Osama and his minions.
He's your hero because he thinks thinner is better without anything to back it up???
Some of us just prefer to run a cooler running, better flowing oil. I haven't heard any metal to metal scraping yet in 99,000 miles in my 5-20 filled Honda. Lol. BTW when you pull a guy 3 cars out of the hole,there ain't no need to power shift down the track.
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
. . .
He's your hero because he thinks thinner is better without anything to back it up???
Lighten up now BGN. That was a moment of simple levity. I do agree with much of what he says, but that was not the real point of my post. But since you mentioned it, he is raising the stakes in this "game" in a way that most of us simply can not. From what he's reporting, though, he is getting an adequate wedge, and overall performance, that would seem to indicate that using "thin" oils is not the recipe for disaster you think it is.
p.s. hope the above maeks sense. Ended up wit a few long-ago Marnie foiends tonight - glad I wan'tt driving or I'd hafve been DUI in the worst possibl way...
. . .
He's your hero because he thinks thinner is better without anything to back it up???
Lighten up now BGN. That was a moment of simple levity. I do agree with much of what he says, but that was not the real point of my post. But since you mentioned it, he is raising the stakes in this "game" in a way that most of us simply can not. From what he's reporting, though, he is getting an adequate wedge, and overall performance, that would seem to indicate that using "thin" oils is not the recipe for disaster you think it is.
p.s. hope the above maeks sense. Ended up wit a few long-ago Marnie foiends tonight - glad I wan'tt driving or I'd hafve been DUI in the worst possibl way...
Originally Posted By: FZ1
Some of us just prefer to run a cooler running, better flowing oil. I haven't heard any metal to metal scraping yet in 99,000 miles in my 5-20 filled Honda. Lol. BTW when you pull a guy 3 cars out of the hole,there ain't no need to power shift down the track.
When it's a ZR1 there is. Besides, mine is an auto. It just happened to dead hook at 35mph when I put it to the floor which is rare. This was a random street encounter. We've been eyeballing each other going opposite ways for a couple months now. Finally met up at a light. It's for reasons like this I run it on slicks all the time.
Some of us just prefer to run a cooler running, better flowing oil. I haven't heard any metal to metal scraping yet in 99,000 miles in my 5-20 filled Honda. Lol. BTW when you pull a guy 3 cars out of the hole,there ain't no need to power shift down the track.
When it's a ZR1 there is. Besides, mine is an auto. It just happened to dead hook at 35mph when I put it to the floor which is rare. This was a random street encounter. We've been eyeballing each other going opposite ways for a couple months now. Finally met up at a light. It's for reasons like this I run it on slicks all the time.
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Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
. . .
He's your hero because he thinks thinner is better without anything to back it up???
Lighten up now BGN. That was a moment of simple levity. I do agree with much of what he says, but that was not the real point of my post. But since you mentioned it, he is raising the stakes in this "game" in a way that most of us simply can not. From what he's reporting, though, he is getting an adequate wedge, and overall performance, that would seem to indicate that using "thin" oils is not the recipe for disaster you think it is.
p.s. hope the above maeks sense. Ended up wit a few long-ago Marnie foiends tonight - glad I wan'tt driving or I'd hafve been DUI in the worst possibl way...
LOL. Have fun, be safe, and I don't envy your hangover tomorrow. 4 beers turns into a 2 day hangover for me in my old age.
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
. . .
He's your hero because he thinks thinner is better without anything to back it up???
Lighten up now BGN. That was a moment of simple levity. I do agree with much of what he says, but that was not the real point of my post. But since you mentioned it, he is raising the stakes in this "game" in a way that most of us simply can not. From what he's reporting, though, he is getting an adequate wedge, and overall performance, that would seem to indicate that using "thin" oils is not the recipe for disaster you think it is.
p.s. hope the above maeks sense. Ended up wit a few long-ago Marnie foiends tonight - glad I wan'tt driving or I'd hafve been DUI in the worst possibl way...
LOL. Have fun, be safe, and I don't envy your hangover tomorrow. 4 beers turns into a 2 day hangover for me in my old age.
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
. . .
I guess what I'm looking for is an admission that higher power outputs regardless of temperature require higher viscosities to keep things separated.
I can not, in good faith, give you the admission you seek, at least not all of it. With a bunch of qualifiers, sure.
Now, I want YOU to admit that for apps in which there is virtually zero chance of EVER seeing the extreme conditions which you cite, lower vis lubes are perfectly OK.
... failed flogging attempt right there. Now why would he admit to such a thing without the same arguments that you put on him when he wanted you to admit to his statement? What is this, some kind of (kangaroo) "court of law game" going on in here?!
And no, I did not "over argue" my dragster analogy. It was used as an attempt to penetrate some thick skulls ... but apparently it just bounced off said thick skulls.
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
. . .
I guess what I'm looking for is an admission that higher power outputs regardless of temperature require higher viscosities to keep things separated.
I can not, in good faith, give you the admission you seek, at least not all of it. With a bunch of qualifiers, sure.
Now, I want YOU to admit that for apps in which there is virtually zero chance of EVER seeing the extreme conditions which you cite, lower vis lubes are perfectly OK.
And no, I did not "over argue" my dragster analogy. It was used as an attempt to penetrate some thick skulls ... but apparently it just bounced off said thick skulls.
Originally Posted By: FZ1
Sounds like "American Graffiti". Safer at the strip.
I agree. I never do a full pass and rarely even open it up all the way. It's usually a quick partial throttle 0-60 or 70 and I back off. The ZR1 got me a little excited and that's the first on boost launch I've done in a very long time. It was kind of funny, I was so nervous with all the hype on these cars but after this, there's no doubt it was not going to be a close race.. even with my syurp in the crankcase. I've been checking the Corvette forums to see if anyone posted the story.
Sounds like "American Graffiti". Safer at the strip.
I agree. I never do a full pass and rarely even open it up all the way. It's usually a quick partial throttle 0-60 or 70 and I back off. The ZR1 got me a little excited and that's the first on boost launch I've done in a very long time. It was kind of funny, I was so nervous with all the hype on these cars but after this, there's no doubt it was not going to be a close race.. even with my syurp in the crankcase. I've been checking the Corvette forums to see if anyone posted the story.
Some more tidbits from career tribology scientists. Link: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa5322/is_200711/ai_n21298415/?tag=content;col1
Page 3:
Quote:
Wear at 50°C was extremely small due to significant reduction in the severity of contacts due to the increased film thickness resulting from increased oil viscosity. The wear rate under this condition was near zero. However, the wear rate increased when the oil temperature was raised to 100°C again.
Also, the friction torque decreased with increased speed at 100°C because the valvetrain operates in the mixed or EHD lubrication regime. However, at 50°C the friction torque variation with speed became flatter compared to that observed at 100°C. This is due to fewer mechanical interactions between asperities on two sliding surfaces due to increased oil viscosity.
Page 6:
Quote:
The oil viscosity plays a significant role in friction and wear response in the direct acting mechanical bucket-type valvetrain. The increase in oil viscosity would reduce friction by reducing the severe interactions between the asperities of sliding surfaces.
Good read and food for thought.
So, science says one thing and the armchair BITOG trybologists (or rather spin doctors) say another. Whom to believe?
Page 3:
Quote:
Wear at 50°C was extremely small due to significant reduction in the severity of contacts due to the increased film thickness resulting from increased oil viscosity. The wear rate under this condition was near zero. However, the wear rate increased when the oil temperature was raised to 100°C again.
Also, the friction torque decreased with increased speed at 100°C because the valvetrain operates in the mixed or EHD lubrication regime. However, at 50°C the friction torque variation with speed became flatter compared to that observed at 100°C. This is due to fewer mechanical interactions between asperities on two sliding surfaces due to increased oil viscosity.
Page 6:
Quote:
The oil viscosity plays a significant role in friction and wear response in the direct acting mechanical bucket-type valvetrain. The increase in oil viscosity would reduce friction by reducing the severe interactions between the asperities of sliding surfaces.
Good read and food for thought.
So, science says one thing and the armchair BITOG trybologists (or rather spin doctors) say another. Whom to believe?
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Some more tidbits from career tribology scientists. Link: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa5322/is_200711/ai_n21298415/?tag=content;col1
Page 3:
Quote:
Wear at 50°C was extremely small due to significant reduction in the severity of contacts due to the increased film thickness resulting from increased oil viscosity. The wear rate under this condition was near zero. However, the wear rate increased when the oil temperature was raised to 100°C again.
Also, the friction torque decreased with increased speed at 100°C because the valvetrain operates in the mixed or EHD lubrication regime. However, at 50°C the friction torque variation with speed became flatter compared to that observed at 100°C. This is due to fewer mechanical interactions between asperities on two sliding surfaces due to increased oil viscosity.
Page 6:
Quote:
The oil viscosity plays a significant role in friction and wear response in the direct acting mechanical bucket-type valvetrain. The increase in oil viscosity would reduce friction by reducing the severe interactions between the asperities of sliding surfaces.
Good read and food for thought.
So, science says one thing and the armchair BITOG trybologists (or rather spin doctors) say another. Whom to believe?
While this is perfectly logical and I completely agree with it I look forward to how twisted this is going to get from the thin guys.
Some more tidbits from career tribology scientists. Link: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa5322/is_200711/ai_n21298415/?tag=content;col1
Page 3:
Quote:
Wear at 50°C was extremely small due to significant reduction in the severity of contacts due to the increased film thickness resulting from increased oil viscosity. The wear rate under this condition was near zero. However, the wear rate increased when the oil temperature was raised to 100°C again.
Also, the friction torque decreased with increased speed at 100°C because the valvetrain operates in the mixed or EHD lubrication regime. However, at 50°C the friction torque variation with speed became flatter compared to that observed at 100°C. This is due to fewer mechanical interactions between asperities on two sliding surfaces due to increased oil viscosity.
Page 6:
Quote:
The oil viscosity plays a significant role in friction and wear response in the direct acting mechanical bucket-type valvetrain. The increase in oil viscosity would reduce friction by reducing the severe interactions between the asperities of sliding surfaces.
Good read and food for thought.
So, science says one thing and the armchair BITOG trybologists (or rather spin doctors) say another. Whom to believe?
While this is perfectly logical and I completely agree with it I look forward to how twisted this is going to get from the thin guys.
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Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
I'm just trying to figure out how a 4400 mile engine with wear metals trending down over 1400 mile OCIs proves anything?
So if he switches back to 10W-60 and UOAs show wear metals fall again does that prove thicker is better?
I was wondering the same thing...... Not to mention using UOA's as the complete basis for this kind of argument is a huge stretch to begin with.
I'm just trying to figure out how a 4400 mile engine with wear metals trending down over 1400 mile OCIs proves anything?
So if he switches back to 10W-60 and UOAs show wear metals fall again does that prove thicker is better?
I was wondering the same thing...... Not to mention using UOA's as the complete basis for this kind of argument is a huge stretch to begin with.
So after 18 pages, will the BITOG genius's please tell me what is the universal grade for street use, temperate -20 to 40 deg C.
for a 2 litre to 4 litre engine, regardless of vehicle brand or type.
for a 2 litre to 4 litre engine, regardless of vehicle brand or type.
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Help me with my CliffNotes scanning. Just what viscosity were they testing at?
Are you doubling your wear rate since you're not using 50 or 60 weight oil? If yes, is that wear rate significant? If no, why not since you're at a lower viscosity?
The title of the paper is
Valvetrain Friction and Wear Performance with Fresh and Used Low Phosphorous Engine Oils
..and appears to be proving that lowering additive levels increases wear.
Are you doubling your wear rate since you're not using 50 or 60 weight oil? If yes, is that wear rate significant? If no, why not since you're at a lower viscosity?
The title of the paper is
Valvetrain Friction and Wear Performance with Fresh and Used Low Phosphorous Engine Oils
..and appears to be proving that lowering additive levels increases wear.
Originally Posted By: virginoil
So after 18 pages, will the BITOG genius's please tell me what is the universal grade for street use, temperate -20 to 40 deg C.
for a 2 litre to 4 litre engine, regardless of vehicle brand or type.
The real answer is ..... Consult your Owner's Manual.
So after 18 pages, will the BITOG genius's please tell me what is the universal grade for street use, temperate -20 to 40 deg C.
for a 2 litre to 4 litre engine, regardless of vehicle brand or type.
The real answer is ..... Consult your Owner's Manual.
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