On car salespeople and lying

[d00df00d]

Context: I've had to sell my M3, and am now shopping for a new car. Because what I'm looking for is specific and rare, I'm at the mercy of information from salespeople even more than the average consumer is.

I recently listened to an audiobook of Lying by Sam Harris. One of the things he points out is that a few lies here and there can destroy people's trust for whole classes of people (like car salespeople), and that lack of trust has a steep cost. I've seen those effects in many ways while selling my car and shopping for a new one.

Salespeople have a reputation for bending and breaking the truth. Thus, I feel I can't trust them when they say stuff like:

- The car is in excellent shape and has nothing wrong with it.
- They specialize in cars like this and know the market very well, so the price is fair.
- They're already losing money on the car.
- After I left the dealership, they suddenly got a flood of new interest in a car I had just looked at.
- Some other prospective buyer is coming up from another state to look at the car.
- If I don't take the price they're offering me, they're going to re-list the car at a higher price.
- Their extended warranty covers XYZ 100%, and they'd be happy to give me the warranty terms in writing after I buy the car.

Then I got to be on the other side of the equation. While selling my car, I got a flood of emails from people on Craigslist, some of which said "I'll show up with a tow truck and cash, just tell me when." So, when people tried to lowball me, I told them I wasn't moving on the price because I had a lot of people waiting in the wings -- exactly the kind of thing that dealerships were telling me. I know it was true in my case, but why would anyone believe me? There was nothing I could reasonably do to prove that I was telling the truth. Luckily someone did believe me, but I can't help but feel he was too trusting.

I do know that some of the stuff the dealers told me was flat-out untrue. "There's nothing wrong with it" was the big one (there were actually various cosmetic defects, taillights with condensation, intolerable levels of noise from an aftermarket intake, etc.). The extended warranty stuff turned out to be chaff, too; they could never provide any documentation, and in one case they ended up admitting that what I had been asking about wouldn't be covered after all.

On the flip side, I do have some evidence that they were telling the truth on some points. The dealership that claimed to know the market very well really did have a lot of similar cars in its lot. The car that supposedly had lots of interest really did sell shortly afterward. The other car really did get re-listed at a higher price.

I simply had no way to tell when they were lying and when they were telling the truth. If I did, I might have bought a car by now, and the dealerships wouldn't have left such poor impressions on me. More importantly, car shopping wouldn't be so difficult and anxiety-provoking. Instead, I'm stuck trying to read facial expressions and body language, and speculating on the odds that I'm being hustled. In other words, I can't simply make a rational decision on the car. I'm forced to rely on my gut feeling, which is way too easily affected by irrelevant factors (e.g. the demeanor of the sales people). This is a terrible way to do business.

It really is amazing how much a lack of trust costs.

 

[Doog]

I will only buy a new car or CPO from a dealer. I now prefer the CPO with 30-40,000 miles on it because it has already been road tested by the previous owner. I then demand the dealer print out the service history of the vehicle. If they refuse or don't have it. Bye Bye.

I trust no one when it comes to car sales. Caveat emptor.

 

[dparm]

Sorry to hear you sold the M3.

I think the crux of the problem is that the salespeople like to make sweeping generalizations that are only true in the vaguest sense, such as saying the car is in "excellent shape and nothing is wrong with it". Honestly, it's why I bought my M3 from CarMax. It is truly a no-[censored] approach. They're upfront about everything and you never get the sense of "this guy is trying to screw me".

I think it pays to shop around at different dealers until you get a good vibe from one. Even within the same dealership its remarkable how some employees are good people, and others are typical scumbags.

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I simply had no way to tell when they were lying and when they were telling the truth.


Here is how you tell...if their mouth is moving...they are lying

 

[mrsilv04]

When I'm out and buying, I just turn the [censored] filter on, and turn it up to its maximum setting.

What I know to *not* be the truth, goes in one ear, and out the other. But I keep a mental tally of how many lies or misrepresentations that I hear.

I will say, with my last three purchases, either I'm going to better managed dealerships where they are keeping their sales staff under better control, or it might just be getting better out there.

You must remember though, the car that you're looking at is just one of thousands that the salesman has seen come and go over time. As a buyer, you're interest is on that one vehicle, at that moment in time, and you're focused in on it like a laser beam.

However, the salesman may have hundreds of cars on the lot, and two other vehicles that are very similar to it. Was the black one the one that we sold new? Or is it the blue one? Is it the red one that has new tires?

Of the last three dealers that I've bought from, I'd return to all three. And I think that is pretty good. Two were in the Chicago suburbs, and one was located outside of Peoria.

Now that I think about it, I caught more lies from the guy that we bought the motorhome off of, than any of the last three cars. And I bought the motorhome off of the owner, not a dealer.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
...Instead, I'm stuck trying to read facial expressions and body language, and speculating on the odds that I'm being hustled. In other words, I can't simply make a rational decision on the car. I'm forced to rely on my gut feeling...


No, you can still make a rational decision, based on some facts that you can control. Some luck plays part in the transaction, as always.

Always ask for any maintenance records the dealer might have and the ownership history. Then have the car inspected by a mechanic of your choosing and run the vehicle check by yourself to confirm whatever documentation the dealer gave you.

If all of that checks out fine and your mechanic gives the car a clean pass, all is left are your price negotiations. In which case you should have your budget and stick to it. Forget whatever soap story the dealer might be telling you and don't waste time pondering if it's true or not. If the price is outside your budget, just move on to another car.

Dealers don't have to lie to you, but they will try to emotionally attach you to the car and make you feel that you cannot get another car like they have. If you let it happen to you, then… well, all bets are off.

 

[apwillard1986]

As a dealer I will tell you it is not different than any other business in that some are honest and some aren’t. I had a sales manager once who opined that the entire car business has changed except for the customer’s perception of it. That perception can often color people's opinion of the information they are given.

Some of what you list is indeed a big fat lie. I wouldn’t believe any used car salesmen that told me there was nothing wrong with a used car. I wouldn’t buy a warranty without knowing the terms up front.

However, at the risk of inciting animosity I will say some of it may be true particularly since you say you are looking at a specific and rare vehicle. We do sometimes lose money on cars. We have had customers stumble upon incorrectly priced specialty units on the internet and told them we would honor the price for them but that it was mis-priced and would be re-listed at the corrected (higher) price if they choose not to purchase. We do often have many people interested in the same vehicle, especially specialty units. I cannot even count the number of customers who left assuming the salesmen was lying when he said there where other interested parties only to return and become angry when they find out the unit sold while they were playing poker because they assumed we were.

Obviously sometimes these are ploys used at unscrupulous dealers and if you are shopping for a standard unit then I would be less inclined to believe them since there are thousands of such cars. However, you state you are looking for a specific and rare unit which may indicate others are as well and a more limited supply. I see it everyday so I have a perspective that the average customer who buys a car every three years or so doesn’t.

 

[JHZR2]

Im sure this will ruffle some feathers, but IMO all sales and marketing is about stretching the truth to the point that comes across with just enough genuine context to be believable, but enough stretch to make the sale. That does not imply lies, just perhaps applying overly rose-colored glasses... Though Im sure things are overlooked substantially as well.

Its no different in real estate, when overpriced "cozy" 900 sq ft. bungalows with bad roofs and horrid floorplans get staged and then they claim how great space there is for family and work. Watch any of those real estate shows and it just makes me want to puke.

And the other side of it is that a lot of people just dont know their material. They have no real idea what the purpose of certain things are beyond the vaguest sense. You see this with quota hires at various retailers, where "service" implies a freshly pressed uniform and someone there smiling with a nametag to get an item taken through checkout and to your car.

Sometimes if you know what you want and are shopping for price, this may not mater. Other times it may be a big deal. Something as substantial as even a used car requires due diligence. You can be sure that the seller wants to maximize profit and that means do as little to the item to make it saleable at maximum price as possible. That's why I always have a chuckle at the bleeding heart "pro business at all costs" types, because NOBODY is really selling/doing something for you out of the goodness of their heart. It is to maximize how much money YOU give to THEM and they keep. That's regardless of overhead costs or taxation structure or anything else. So nobody is to be trusted. And that element is neither good or bad, it just is.

Sometimes you can overlook certain things (or use them as a negotiating point) if you know your market well enough to know what the cost of reconciliation is. THings like taillights with some condensation might be easy ones. But you still need to know your market, because especially with used stuff, its all about outfoxing the last guy and the next guy...

 

[Bambam]

I try not to give the salesman the advantage. I go in after walking the lot on a sunday (when they are closed), find the vehicle I want, take a picture of the sticker, and then sit down and crunch numbers realisticly. I do the same if I am trading in, once I get all my facts I come up with a number, so before they can start with the rhetoric, I say I am interested in stock # blah blah, thats my trade out there, gimme your best number,if it meets mine we have a deal, if not bye-bye... I did that on my last two purchases and my calculations were slightly higher than what they gave = WIN.. Rare or not, having all the info you need, being realistic gives you the upper hand and takes them out of their element ! GOOD LUCK

 

[Donald]

Set your expectations such that you assume they (car salesman) always lie.

 

[Kuato]

As said above, mx records. Call any dealer bluff, especially on conditiin, by asking for a warranty in writing.

Or just go to Carmax. You will likely pay a couple thousand more, than the 'best deal' elsewhere, but you get what you pay for.

 

[jmsjags]

Originally Posted By: Doog
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I simply had no way to tell when they were lying and when they were telling the truth.


Here is how you tell...if their mouth is moving...they are lying

I sold cars recently for a few months. I never once lied to a customer of mine. Unfortunately, I ended up leaving because I got fed up with the way I was always treated and the ridiculous lies customers would give me.

At one point my dealership had an employee pricing certificate to use on the next new car we sold. Well at this point I had already been working with a guy on purchasing a new Camaro but could tell he was still shopping around at other dealerships. I called and told him the good news and let him know that if we got a partial payment from him before anyone else, the employee pricing was his. I quoted him the new price over the phone so that he could see the difference (around $1,000). He still did not believe me and I ended up having to get a manager involved to call and close him.

I had another guy that I greeted that told me he was going to service. So I showed him where the service department was and wished him well. A minute later, my manager comes out the front door and chews me out because a customer walked right up to the sales tower and started asking the manager questions about the Camaro. I then walked in the showroom and found the guy and asked him what questions he had. "Oh, I don't have any questions I'm just looking around." So this guy lied to me and got me in trouble with my manager. Thanks.

I could go on and on about some of the rude, blatant liars we had walk onto our lot. It definitely takes thick skin to work in the car business.

 

[Sierra048]

Originally Posted By: Bambam
I try not to give the salesman the advantage. I go in after walking the lot on a sunday (when they are closed), find the vehicle I want, take a picture of the sticker, and then sit down and crunch numbers realisticly. I do the same if I am trading in, once I get all my facts I come up with a number, so before they can start with the rhetoric, I say I am interested in stock # blah blah, thats my trade out there, gimme your best number,if it meets mine we have a deal, if not bye-bye... I did that on my last two purchases and my calculations were slightly higher than what they gave = WIN.. Rare or not, having all the info you need, being realistic gives you the upper hand and takes them out of their element ! GOOD LUCK


^+1

 

[strat81]

I used to sell cars. I also spent some time in a service department as a service writer.

Customers lie.

"I have great credit."
No you don't. According to your credit report, you haven't paid anyone for anything in three years. But I'm sure the credit bureau is "in on it" and "out to get you."

"I don't have a trade-in."
Then why do you have a vehicle title in your front pocket? Were you gonna whip that out at the end of the deal or do you just carry it around for fun?

"I just spoke to the other dealer across town and he offered me the same vehicle for $8k less than what you're offering."
Really? He offered $8k less than us on a $22k vehicle we've already dropped $3k on? IOW, he offered you vehicle at 50% off MSRP? If he did, we'd be down there buying his cars to put on our lot.

"My trade-in is *clean*. Virtually perfect."
There's hail damage on the roof, hood, and trunk. The driver's door has been repainted. There are three different brands of tires on it. Your headlights aren't aimed correctly because the bracket they mount to is crumpled like a piece of paper.

"I've been driving stick for years."
Ka-thunk. *stall*

I had a few customers that wouldn't even shake my hand and/or tell me their names when I introduced myself. Really? You act uncivilized and now you want a deal? Ha.


I post this not to say that car salesmen are awesome. Rather, the deceit is a two-way street.

 

[apwillard1986]

Originally Posted By: Kuato
As said above, mx records. Call any dealer bluff, especially on conditiin, by asking for a warranty in writing.

Or just go to Carmax. You will likely pay a couple thousand more, than the 'best deal' elsewhere, but you get what you pay for.


The only thing that extra couple of thousand dollars buys you at Carmax is erroneous perception that they somehow sell a different caliber of used automobile. Carmax sells the same auction bought cars and trade-ins that every other dealer sells.

 

[strat81]

Originally Posted By: apwillard1986
Originally Posted By: Kuato
As said above, mx records. Call any dealer bluff, especially on conditiin, by asking for a warranty in writing.

Or just go to Carmax. You will likely pay a couple thousand more, than the 'best deal' elsewhere, but you get what you pay for.


The only thing that extra couple of thousand dollars buys you at Carmax is erroneous perception that they somehow sell a different caliber of used automobile. Carmax sells the same auction bought cars and trade-ins that every other dealer sells.

The vehicle I bought at Carmax had a new battery and new tires. They also paid several hundred dollars to have memory seats and drivers door module replaced at my local dealer under their 30-day warranty.

I will say that Carmax pricing is incredibly inconsistent. Very similar vehicles of the same make/model can have price differences of $3k or more.

Bill's Used Car Lot and Bait Shop down the street? If the transmission falls out a mile down the road, too bad. It was sold "as is".

 

[supton]

I agree; sales and marketing is all about lying. Or at least stretching the truth. There's always another sucker around the corner; if not, we'll claim a change of heart and cut out profit margin a bit. For a little while. Until we rein 'em in again.

Very few people are looking out for your best interest in life.

*

I'm not sure what is the best method of dealing with cars, but IMO the easiest is to buy new and run into the ground. Second easiest is to buy new and trade, knowing you'll lose money. After that, if you want to save money, it will cost time and effort.

For the amount of time and effort I'm not sure I'm willing to comb used car lots, for the reasons listed. I think I'd rather go dirt cheap, where it can be safely assumed that everything on the car is broken; or new/CPO.

 

[Bottom_Feeder]

Originally Posted By: strat81
... the deceit is a two-way street.

And I'll bet that the care salesmen of the world started it first.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: strat81
I post this not to say that car salesmen are awesome. Rather, the deceit is a two-way street.


I will take that as a fair view from "the other side of the fence." It's a good point, I'm sure more than a few customers have screwed over a dealer, quite intentionally. Or at least tried.

 

[apwillard1986]

Give respect and demand respect in return. If it feels wrong walk away and look elsewhere until it feels right. If you want honesty ensure that you are giving it. The car business has changed dramatically in the last decade. Many salesmen are no longer commission but hourly and many are not “professional” salespeople but come from other professions that downsized due to recession.

Buying a car can seem frustratingly irrational because it is the least rational purchase we make. It is geared to be an emotional buying experience because it is an emotional decision by nature. If everyone approached car buying rationally most people would still be driving their first car since it was in many instances the only car they ever truly needed. Instead, we pull into the dealer every three years or so to trade in perfectly functional cars that the finance companies still own a majority stake in to finance the latest depreciating whiz-bang. We leave complaining about how unpleasant an experience it was only to return like clockwork every three years to do it all over again. It is almost masochistic.

Obviously this is a generalization and not everyone buys a vehicle this way but a majority of customers do. The industry is geared toward the emotionalism of most customers because it sells the most cars.