On car salespeople and lying

[CourierDriver]

If you believe you get a great( whatever the definition of great is) at the auto dealership, then maybe you should buy some stay young forever pills at Walgreens. What you will never know is the kickbacks from the factory and lots more. If there is a former F/I guy in here, he could tell you the truth. F n I ( finance and insurance )

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: apwillard1986
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I think dealerships are an albatross for manufacturers. If someone is dumb enough to pay 10k over sticker they'll take it. Every other thing in the world we buy has a reasonable and logical price without the games.

Fire the dealers. Price the product reasonably as a take it or leave it. If we bought cars like we buy everything else, I don't think the public would be so apprehensive.

I'll drive the wheels off my stuff before I go back for more abuse.



You don’t want to buy cars like you buy everything else. The average retail markup on new cars is 2-5%. That assumes a customer pays sticker which almost no one does. For comparison the average retail markup on “everything else” is:

Clothing: 100+%
Shoes: 100+%
Cell Phones: 8%
Furniture: 200+%
Grocery: 10+%
Medication: 200+%

I do agree that the best practice is to buy a vehicle and keep it. It is the soundest financial decision. Due to improvements in manufacturing, materials, and engineering, modern vehicles have the capacity to reliably last a very long time. I treat my vehicles like appliances. I buy them, take care of them as well as possible, and replace them when they wear out.


I also suspect that for every one of us who buys at or below invoice minus rebates and brings in our own financing, there are folks who show up with a low credit score and are simply hoping the dealership can get them bought by a bank or CU. They don't really care what the price is. If they can get approved for a note they can afford, they'll buy the car.


Those are the people off of which the dealers really make money.

The "I deserve this new Lexus and can only afford $150 a month" type.

 

[javacontour]

It's not just sales. Imagine being in service.

No, we didn't work on our computer, it must have come from the factory that way.

I heard that from a customer who put 3rd party memory in their computer, dislodged some EMI shielding which shorted out the DC-DC converter on the board.

Or, no one changed anything on the system, it must be3 a bug in the software. I heard that from a customer who managed to cut and paste the output of one command into the administrator shell, over-writing all the files in the system configuration directory, zeroing out the contents of key files.

I'm not saying they do this intentionally in all cases. In the latter case, they didn't even realize what they did. But, what they told me was not the truth.

The first case was just a bald faced lie, and a really bad one since they didn't undo what they did.

Then there are the customers who have a hanger queen. They get support on a few machines. Those that don't have support contracts never seem to go down. But the handfull on support suffer all the DIMM, CPU, power supply, fan and disk failures. How lucky are they that they picked the right machine to put on a support contract.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: strat81
I used to sell cars. I also spent some time in a service department as a service writer.

Customers lie.

"I have great credit."
No you don't. According to your credit report, you haven't paid anyone for anything in three years. But I'm sure the credit bureau is "in on it" and "out to get you."

"I don't have a trade-in."
Then why do you have a vehicle title in your front pocket? Were you gonna whip that out at the end of the deal or do you just carry it around for fun?

"I just spoke to the other dealer across town and he offered me the same vehicle for $8k less than what you're offering."
Really? He offered $8k less than us on a $22k vehicle we've already dropped $3k on? IOW, he offered you vehicle at 50% off MSRP? If he did, we'd be down there buying his cars to put on our lot.

"My trade-in is *clean*. Virtually perfect."
There's hail damage on the roof, hood, and trunk. The driver's door has been repainted. There are three different brands of tires on it. Your headlights aren't aimed correctly because the bracket they mount to is crumpled like a piece of paper.

"I've been driving stick for years."
Ka-thunk. *stall*

I had a few customers that wouldn't even shake my hand and/or tell me their names when I introduced myself. Really? You act uncivilized and now you want a deal? Ha.


I post this not to say that car salesmen are awesome. Rather, the deceit is a two-way street.


I agree with you, we probably could compare notes and easily write a novel.

Good sales people don't lie, they modify the truth to fit the question or situation at hand. LOL

On a more serious note: I've been in one form of sales or another all my life, and taught people how to sell, here's what I've learned. All customers lie, not just the sales people. Some people lie better than others, the person who lies the least usually does the best. People aren't stupid, and most smart people have a built in B_S meter, the key to a good salesman is not to trip the customer's B_S meter. Mine is quite keen, and when someone is B_S'ing me it trips the meter and they lose the sale, no matter how good the deal might have been.

 

[dlundblad]

Liars are everywhere. Anyone have any liars in the workplace? Lol.

 

[whip]

The job of a sales person is to sell the product for the most amount of money. In this day, if you get taken, it's your fault. I don't understand the outrage over this.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: whip
The job of a sales person is to sell the product for the most amount of money. In this day, if you get taken, it's your fault. I don't understand the outrage over this.


That's a fact. A good sales person tries to get the most $$ he can. A good consumer tries to spend the least he can. Two facts of life in the business world.

 

[Kuato]

Originally Posted By: apwillard1986
Originally Posted By: Kuato
As said above, mx records. Call any dealer bluff, especially on conditiin, by asking for a warranty in writing.

Or just go to Carmax. You will likely pay a couple thousand more, than the 'best deal' elsewhere, but you get what you pay for.


The only thing that extra couple of thousand dollars buys you at Carmax is erroneous perception that they somehow sell a different caliber of used automobile. Carmax sells the same auction bought cars and trade-ins that every other dealer sells.





I see we won't agree here and that's cool. FYI I worked for them for awhile and they are different; but fair is fair at the end of the day they are a used car dealer. They do not however sell flood or frame damaged vehicles, ever.

And try getting a 5-day no questions return policy at the rip off lot down the street.

 

[Benzadmiral]

I have not had many bad dealer experiences, and almost nothing since the advent of the 'Net. Sure, they have more experience at negotiation than I do: They do this every day, I do it once every 3-6 years. But the 'Net has given us a great deal more information and therefore ammunition. When the Toyota dealer wouldn't budge on their asking price for the 6-year-old Avalon I was considering, I walked.

(Two weeks later, driving past, I saw it still for sale on their lot. Heh, heh, heh.)

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I think dealerships are an albatross for manufacturers. If someone is dumb enough to pay 10k over sticker they'll take it. Every other thing in the world we buy has a reasonable and logical price without the games.

Fire the dealers. Price the product reasonably as a take it or leave it. If we bought cars like we buy everything else, I don't think the public would be so apprehensive.

I'll drive the wheels off my stuff before I go back for more abuse.



Tesla is trying that and every state is taking them to court on it.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: apwillard1986
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I think dealerships are an albatross for manufacturers. If someone is dumb enough to pay 10k over sticker they'll take it. Every other thing in the world we buy has a reasonable and logical price without the games.

Fire the dealers. Price the product reasonably as a take it or leave it. If we bought cars like we buy everything else, I don't think the public would be so apprehensive.

I'll drive the wheels off my stuff before I go back for more abuse.



You don’t want to buy cars like you buy everything else. The average retail markup on new cars is 2-5%. That assumes a customer pays sticker which almost no one does. For comparison the average retail markup on “everything else” is:

Clothing: 100+%
Shoes: 100+%
Cell Phones: 8%
Furniture: 200+%
Grocery: 10+%
Medication: 200+%

I do agree that the best practice is to buy a vehicle and keep it. It is the soundest financial decision. Due to improvements in manufacturing, materials, and engineering, modern vehicles have the capacity to reliably last a very long time. I treat my vehicles like appliances. I buy them, take care of them as well as possible, and replace them when they wear out.


It doesn't work that way, markets set the price just like with everything else. If Toyota decides to mark the Camry up 100% in their factory stores than their sales would tank and the other car manufactures would soak those customers up.

Its no different than any other retail business.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
If you believe you get a great( whatever the definition of great is) at the auto dealership, then maybe you should buy some stay young forever pills at Walgreens. What you will never know is the kickbacks from the factory and lots more. If there is a former F/I guy in here, he could tell you the truth. F n I ( finance and insurance )

When I bought my S2000 I sent 1 email to all Honda dealers within 25 miles, asking them what was the lowest price for it. I got all responds with price, I emailed the dealer with lowest price asking for $1,000 less than that, within few hours I received the email saying they could lower only $300. I used the new lower price to ask for better price from other dealers, none could match it.

So I got the best deal for my S2000 at that time.

 

[Tdbo]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: strat81
I used to sell cars. I also spent some time in a service department as a service writer.

Customers lie.

"I have great credit."
No you don't. According to your credit report, you haven't paid anyone for anything in three years. But I'm sure the credit bureau is "in on it" and "out to get you."

"I don't have a trade-in."
Then why do you have a vehicle title in your front pocket? Were you gonna whip that out at the end of the deal or do you just carry it around for fun?

"I just spoke to the other dealer across town and he offered me the same vehicle for $8k less than what you're offering."
Really? He offered $8k less than us on a $22k vehicle we've already dropped $3k on? IOW, he offered you vehicle at 50% off MSRP? If he did, we'd be down there buying his cars to put on our lot.

"My trade-in is *clean*. Virtually perfect."
There's hail damage on the roof, hood, and trunk. The driver's door has been repainted. There are three different brands of tires on it. Your headlights aren't aimed correctly because the bracket they mount to is crumpled like a piece of paper.

"I've been driving stick for years."
Ka-thunk. *stall*

I had a few customers that wouldn't even shake my hand and/or tell me their names when I introduced myself. Really? You act uncivilized and now you want a deal? Ha.


I post this not to say that car salesmen are awesome. Rather, the deceit is a two-way street.

Sure, some customers do lie. But upon reflection I think some do simply in order to protect themselves from the deserved reputation of most dealers. It's best to be honest though, of course.
I do differ on one item you brought up...."I don't have a trade in" scenario. I know that if I do intend on trading a vehicle in, no way I'm telling the sales person. I don't lie....I just tell them I want to come to an agreement FIRST about the out-the-door price of the vehicle I intend to buy BEFORE I decide if I want to trade anything in. You and I know full well what a dealership does when some unsuspecting customer blurts out..."I am trading in my car" before any pricing decisions have been made. Manipulation of a trade in with numbers and shifty tactics is ALWAYS what EVERY single car dealer I've ever been to does. They make you think that you are getting some great deal on your trade (over book usually) while they scam you on the other end.....often in the form of inflated 'fees' and such for the dreaded 'dealer prep'. Very common.


110% agree.

I have had salespeople say to me (before saying, hello, kiss my butt, etc...) are you going to be trading your _________________ today?
Only rationale that I see for this is to commingle numbers between the new car price/trade as some kind of crude attempt to zoom me.
They ask me, the answer is no. If they want to do business with me it goes in 2 steps. Step 1: Will I be buying a car from you? Step 2: Will you be buying a car from me? If both steps = yes, then more than likely we will be doing business. If not, then no.

 

[TrevorS]

Originally Posted By: whip
The job of a sales person is to sell the product for the most amount of money. In this day, if you get taken, it's your fault. I don't understand the outrage over this.


Being outraged is the job of the customer in order to get the best price.

It works both ways!

 

[Tdbo]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
If you believe you get a great( whatever the definition of great is) at the auto dealership, then maybe you should buy some stay young forever pills at Walgreens. What you will never know is the kickbacks from the factory and lots more. If there is a former F/I guy in here, he could tell you the truth. F n I ( finance and insurance )

When I bought my S2000 I sent 1 email to all Honda dealers within 25 miles, asking them what was the lowest price for it. I got all responds with price, I emailed the dealer with lowest price asking for $1,000 less than that, within few hours I received the email saying they could lower only $300. I used the new lower price to ask for better price from other dealers, none could match it.

So I got the best deal for my S2000 at that time.


This is the only painless way to buy a new car.
Do your homework and use e-mail and phone to wrap things up.
Last car, 15 minutes on the phone and saved $900. over the best deal I could do locally plus got a spoiler, side moldings, and mudflaps thrown in.
Only thing that I do differently: I go 100 miles out.

 

[TrevorS]

My experience with dealers is that they have pre judged their customers, perhaps based on their past customers.

Lexus dealers I found to be generally disrespectful and arrogant. There seems to be an assumption that buyers are not knowledgeable about cars or even the Lexus model they are interested in, and that they only want a Lexus because they buy on reputation, and that they don't need to earn your business. I spent a fair bit of time in dealerships and observed this behavior.

Almost any "lesser" brand, I've found the experience to be Walmart / Kmart like.

Audi dealers have been great. They seem to have a sense that there's something unique about their cars and that you and they understand that.

Infiniti and to a lesser extent Acura are a little like Audi. Infiniti as a more driver orientated brand seems to attract people who are into cars. I had one great experience at Acura where the sales person knew about the Euro Accord equivalent Acura.

Mercedes dealers have also been very respectful. Service depts are great. Salespeople are a little Lexus like in terms of supposing you are only buying the brand but the prestige factor prevents the descent into Toyota land.

And BMW have been a mixed bag. One dealer has been good but others have been incredibly arrogant. Maybe they think that most prospective BMW customers know nothing about BMWs and are just buying the nameplate.

Out of all the luxury brands, I would actually consider buying a Mercedes on the strength of the customer experience while being wary of the BMW. And that's significant because the luxury brand I least want to buy next is a Mercedes and I instead have my eye on a BMW.

Oh, and Volvo dealers have always been nice.

 

[TrevorS]

Originally Posted By: Tdbo
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
If you believe you get a great( whatever the definition of great is) at the auto dealership, then maybe you should buy some stay young forever pills at Walgreens. What you will never know is the kickbacks from the factory and lots more. If there is a former F/I guy in here, he could tell you the truth. F n I ( finance and insurance )

When I bought my S2000 I sent 1 email to all Honda dealers within 25 miles, asking them what was the lowest price for it. I got all responds with price, I emailed the dealer with lowest price asking for $1,000 less than that, within few hours I received the email saying they could lower only $300. I used the new lower price to ask for better price from other dealers, none could match it.

So I got the best deal for my S2000 at that time.


This is the only painless way to buy a new car.
Do your homework and use e-mail and phone to wrap things up.
Last car, 15 minutes on the phone and saved $900. over the best deal I could do locally plus got a spoiler, side moldings, and mudflaps thrown in.
Only thing that I do differently: I go 100 miles out.


Yep. Go out into more remote areas and they need your business. Having a 150 mile or more radius for a one off purchase makes sense. I know that many folks in CT buy from MA.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: whip
The job of a sales person is to sell the product for the most amount of money. In this day, if you get taken, it's your fault. I don't understand the outrage over this.


That's a fact. A good sales person tries to get the most $$ he can. A good consumer tries to spend the least he can. Two facts of life in the business world.


That's what I said in my original post that is the source of the problem. You don't see anything wrong with that? Where's the limit. If you could get 2x sticker would you? The answer is probably yes. Some sales people are devoid of any shred of ethical and moral character. Most of them end up in car sales. These people are the face of GM, Ford, Chrysler etc, and give buyers a bad taste. And believe me its personal and people don't forget.

If I were manufacturing a product I would not want sleaze representing me.

The "job" of a sales person should be to get a reasonable price for a product.

 

[TrevorS]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: whip
The job of a sales person is to sell the product for the most amount of money. In this day, if you get taken, it's your fault. I don't understand the outrage over this.


That's a fact. A good sales person tries to get the most $$ he can. A good consumer tries to spend the least he can. Two facts of life in the business world.


That's what I said in my original post that is the source of the problem. You don't see anything wrong with that? Where's the limit. If you could 2x sticker would you? The answer is probably yes. Some sales people are devoid of any shred of ethical and moral character. Most of them end up in car sales. These people are the face of GM, Ford, Chrysler etc, and give buyers a bad taste. And believe me its personal and people don't forget.

If I were manufacturing a product I would not want sleaze representing me.

The "job" of a sales person should be to get a reasonable price for a product.







Not all sales people are bad. Just that some bad people become sales people.

Some people get a bit corrupted once they get into sales. Once they leave sales they don't lie as much but they have learnt to be manipulative and stretch the truth. You can spot their weasal ways a mile off.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Dealerships are not in control, unless A, you have to have a car, or B its rare and their are a limited number. Other than that, they have really very little negotiating power, most vehicles are commodities.


So true. The last car I bought, my 135i, I did make the deal sitting on the beach with only my iphone. The VW we bought before that we did in person, but same deal.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette

The "job" of a sales person should be to get a reasonable price for a product.


The job of a sales person is to do what his boss wants him to do, and every boss I ever worked for wanted us to sell the car for as much as possible. Ever wonder where the salesman was going with your offer? To the manager most of the time, to get instructions on how to work the deal. Commission is the incentive, the more you sell the product for the more you make. Selling for a reasonable price is fine, if you're working straight salary. I left car sales to move back to bigger and better, I got tired of the long hours and B_S from management. BTW the real money makers were the F&I managers, the salesmen were usually the pawns.

As far as ethics,we're not all bad. I told more than one customer to avoid certain cars or have their mechanics check them. I sold a lot of cars that way.