older engine,sludge,new oils etc

[Truckedup]

I'm involved with older trucks and hear the stories many times about how modern oils will loosen sludge possibly causing oiling issues.I never really believed this considering I've seen modern engines full of sludge that run fine after oil changes.
And what do you think of this statement? Is this guy correct about how detergent oil works?This was posted on a vintage car site..............
Quote:
Disappointing that even today there is a common mis-conception about "detergent" and "multi-grade" oil.

Folks, please, those terms were products of the ADVERTISING folks who were in charge of getting you to BUY the stuff. Those terms have NOTHING to do with the real world of oil chemistry.

It is true that in the first few years (late 1940's) they had some problems with sludge dissolving. That was over by the early 1950's. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "DETERGENT" oil. It is an ADVERTISING phrase. What "detergent" oil REALLY means, is that thru chemistry, they have figured out a way so that the molecules that FORM sludge can not link up. Use it and your motor will not sludge up. Has NO effect on EXISTING sludge any different from ANY oil. NONE. If you start using a badly sludged up engine, ANY oil may act as a solvent & loosen up sludge.

"SINGLE GRADE" is actully "multi-grade", in that it has dramatic changes in viscosity as it warms up. It can be thick as sour cream when cold, meaning if you start your motor at zero F with 30 W oil, it will be too thick to lubricate, and you will damage your engine. It is ONLY the advertised grade at around 210 degrees. Above that, and it can get thin as water, causing damage.

So called "MULTI GRADE" oil simply means you can use it at ANY temp. within its design limits and those 'spec'd" by the engine manufacturer. Thus MULTI GRADE oil will flow at its rated grade at extremely cold temps, providing you with safe "start up" lubrication, but not THIN OUT at extremes of temp.

It never ceases to amaze me how many back-yard mechanics with only a high school course in physics and chemistry (if that) think they know more about this subject than the graduate chemical engineers and mechanical engineers who design these things.

 

[Donald]

Back in the late 60s I bought a 1965 Mustang 289 that had been run (I assume) on non detergent oil (thats what we called it then). I wanted to take good care of my new (to me) baby so I changed the oil using some of my Dad's QS. There must have been a lot of sludge in the oil pump as it jammed the pump, sheared off the shaft that drove it and with no oil pressure, ruined the engine.

The label on trim unit for my Mercruiser trim says "30W non detergent". You also put non detergent oil in an oil can for oiling motors, etc.

Its pretty hard to find non detergent oil today but was not back in the 1960s.

 

[Burt]

My 65 mustang 289 was a sludge monster as well. I had it into the early 80's and so I assume I used detergent oil, but it still had amazing amounts of sludge.

 

[dparm]

Mind if I ask where the above quoted statement came from? Was it from someone on this site?

 

[Truckedup]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Mind if I ask where the above quoted statement came from? Was it from someone on this site?

No,came from an antique Chevy website,but it could be a person who visits here,I have no clue

 

[lexus114]

Originally Posted By: Donald
Back in the late 60s I bought a 1965 Mustang 289 that had been run (I assume) on non detergent oil (thats what we called it then). I wanted to take good care of my new (to me) baby so I changed the oil using some of my Dad's QS. There must have been a lot of sludge in the oil pump as it jammed the pump, sheared off the shaft that drove it and with no oil pressure, ruined the engine.

The label on trim unit for my Mercruiser trim says "30W non detergent". You also put non detergent oil in an oil can for oiling motors, etc.

Its pretty hard to find non detergent oil today but was not back in the 1960s.


Donald, I remember when lawn mowers called for 30 weight non-detergent oil as well. And it was not that long ago either.

 

[Quest]

well, my take (after reading the "quote") is that it just goes to show how "ignorant" some posters/postings can be.

-multigrade is different from single grade, period.

-back in the days of yore (before the establishments of API-SA), motor oils are nothing but a mixed bag of whatever the oil company wants you to believe in. Being mostly just a lightly solvent-scrubbed oil base (Gp-1) with little to no additives within,and the fact that those days engine are not designed to be efficient to begin with (not very hot running) and general lack of lubricant knowledge and technical requirements, most the the problems they were seeing back then where things that weren't that "important" to them to begin with (when did the consumer market begin to use spin-on disposible oil filter?! late 50s if I recall. Even the V-doubleU engines where running only a mesh screen and not oil filters back then).

Engine tends to get a rebuild, say, every 60,000~ 120,000miles typical?

That was also the era where typical motorists would run stoddard solvent additives to dissolve the sludge (due to relatively weak/lack of detergents within the oil additive packs) on a regular basis. MMO is what gained fame over that period of time.


Also: one of the biggest contributor of oil deterioration--PCV system, didn't exist until mid to late 60s and it all began in Cali due to smog problems.

Now with higher efficiency and ever-so-tight emissions requirements, motor oil must be blended properly to meet the proper automotive requirements and such. Detergent in oil is meant for the suspension of the dirt/crud/insoluables formed as part of the combustion by-products, contaminants that got through the air filter, etc.

In summary: motor oil sold off the shelves these days don't even come close to that from the days of yore some 30+yrs ago. I would be intelligent not to compare them like that.

My 2c's worth. Welcome to BITOG btw.

Q.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: Truckedup
Originally Posted By: dparm
Mind if I ask where the above quoted statement came from? Was it from someone on this site?

No,came from an antique Chevy website,but it could be a person who visits here,I have no clue


Okay, because the way it is written, the person is misinterpreting a few things about how motor oil works...or they are severely behind the times.

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: Donald
Back in the late 60s I bought a 1965 Mustang 289 that had been run (I assume) on non detergent oil (thats what we called it then). I wanted to take good care of my new (to me) baby so I changed the oil using some of my Dad's QS. There must have been a lot of sludge in the oil pump as it jammed the pump, sheared off the shaft that drove it and with no oil pressure, ruined the engine.

The label on trim unit for my Mercruiser trim says "30W non detergent". You also put non detergent oil in an oil can for oiling motors, etc.

Its pretty hard to find non detergent oil today but was not back in the 1960s.


Common problem, but it was because bits of the nylon timing gear teeth or broken valve stem seals found their way into the oil pump, locking it up... Seen several, most twisted the oil pump drive like a barber pole before they broke... There was still a issue into the later 70s with the 302/5.0, had a '78 Fairmont that did same...

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: TFB1
Originally Posted By: Donald
Back in the late 60s I bought a 1965 Mustang 289 that had been run (I assume) on non detergent oil (thats what we called it then). I wanted to take good care of my new (to me) baby so I changed the oil using some of my Dad's QS. There must have been a lot of sludge in the oil pump as it jammed the pump, sheared off the shaft that drove it and with no oil pressure, ruined the engine.

The label on trim unit for my Mercruiser trim says "30W non detergent". You also put non detergent oil in an oil can for oiling motors, etc.

Its pretty hard to find non detergent oil today but was not back in the 1960s.


Common problem, but it was because bits of the nylon timing gear teeth or broken valve stem seals found their way into the oil pump, locking it up... Seen several, most twisted the oil pump drive like a barber pole before they broke... There was still a issue into the later 70s with the 302/5.0, had a '78 Fairmont that did same...


+1 My '68 302 did that to way back when as well. It was already worn out completely, so I short-blocked it and drove it a good while longer. I actually opened up the oil pump to see for sure what locked it. Sure enough, it was the tip of a nylon cam gear tooth that had worked past the screen in the oil pickup.

 

[SS1970chrysler]

^^My '79 Thunderbird 351W did the same.

 

[lexus114]

Originally Posted By: SS1970chrysler
^^My '79 Thunderbird 351W did the same.

Those were pretty nice cars. My Mom had a 79, White with maroon Landau top/interior. Hers had a 302, and every time she put the ac on, it would run very warm according to the temp gauge. And it was only 3 years old at the time.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: lexus114
Originally Posted By: SS1970chrysler
^^My '79 Thunderbird 351W did the same.

Those were pretty nice cars. My Mom had a 79, White with maroon Landau top/interior. Hers had a 302, and every time she put the ac on, it would run very warm according to the temp gauge. And it was only 3 years old at the time.


My sarcastic reaction is, "there WERE no 'nice' cars between 1975 and 1985. Then I remember the Buick Grand National and the Dodge Little Red Express. ;-p A more honest response would be that a whole lot of cars of that era did have problems like running too hot when too many accessories were used. They were trying to run lean mixtures to improve emissions performance, and all of the extra plumbing just created an extra dose of under-hood heat.

 

[SS1970chrysler]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: lexus114
Originally Posted By: SS1970chrysler
^^My '79 Thunderbird 351W did the same.

Those were pretty nice cars. My Mom had a 79, White with maroon Landau top/interior. Hers had a 302, and every time she put the ac on, it would run very warm according to the temp gauge. And it was only 3 years old at the time.


My sarcastic reaction is, "there WERE no 'nice' cars between 1975 and 1985. Then I remember the Buick Grand National and the Dodge Little Red Express. ;-p A more honest response would be that a whole lot of cars of that era did have problems like running too hot when too many accessories were used. They were trying to run lean mixtures to improve emissions performance, and all of the extra plumbing just created an extra dose of under-hood heat.

I've owned '77, '78, & '79 Thunderbirds and to me they were really good cars. They did everything I expected them to do reliably. The only reason I don't have them anymore is that many of the emissions components couldn't be bought when I needed them. (IE: mostly AIR pump stuff) When they put smog checks on those cars here, my best option was to just sell them and buy older stuff that was exempt. Before smog checks were done here, I used to just remove/bypass/throw away all that stuff.

 

[OldCowboy]

My mom had a late 70s Thunderbird. It showed the "Vega effect". When you wanted to pass someone, the transmission would shift down, the engine would rev loudly and you'd slowly gain speed, sedately passing them. In other words, a real dog and an absolute misuse of the Thunderbird designation.