old oil better than new oil

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It seems as though the used oil concept is difficult for some. I tried to exclude exhausted, dirty oil from the discussion - without success. I will attempt to reframe the question. The reframed question is less practical, but also less prone to the "buy my dirty oil" plea.

Let's say that we had a large number of engines (of course not identical, but as close as we can get) that were connected to common machine creating common loads. Each day we drained the oil from one engine and used it to replace the oil in the next engine. The first engine would get virgin oil. (I realize that we have to assume no losses, complete drains, ect.) Our break-in period will end when the oil of he first engine is finally in the last engine. At the end of the experiment, the last engine would have run on only used oil (after break-in), and the first engine would have run on only fresh oil. All engines in between would have run on oil one day older than the last. Let's also assume that we performed the experiment enough times that we were able to get a complete experiment without a catastrophic failure that contaminated all downstream engines. We can also add that all engines draw air from a common sealed duct and that there are no vacumn leaks to get around other contamination issues. At the end of this experiment, we tear down all of the engines, measure wear, and plot a graph with wear on the X-axis and oil age on the Y-axis. Where would the lowest point on that graph be? My bet is that the continuously fresh oil engine would not be the lowest point and that the lowest wear may not be in any of the relatively early engines. My suggestion from the begining of this thread is that the lowest wear would be somewhere in the "used" oil part of the curve/line. I accept that the highest wear would be somewhere in the very used part of the curve.

I accept that above experiment is not "real world." I recognize that some will find additional assumptions that we will have to make. If you consider the above experiment, do you think that low point of the curve is at the beginning (fresh is best) or that the low point will be somewhere in the used range. I don't think anyone will predict that the lowest wear will be in the exhausted, filthy range (if they do, then TallPaul may have new business model). I am also asking you to consider the "curve" - the overall data. I recognize that the lowest point may be an anomoly and I am not really interested in anomolies.
 
Gmorg,
I agree that oil that is not brand new nor depleted is functioning its best. The early part of an oil's life may be subject to most the volatization and less boncding than is occuring after some hours of use.
 
Hmmm. Interesting theory, Gmorg. Your experiment would rate high on my list of how to prove/disprove this theory.
I'm not sure anyone is going to do it anytime soon - but if I win the LOTTO, I promise you here and now, I will do it!
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Until then, I'm afraid I will concede to my OCD and change my M1/filter every 3k miles...

Scott
 
does any one have a link to the ford study. any links to the ford study which documented racetrack blowups on new oil. are these the same studies?
 
Yeah, I think they did those studies on Pintos!
Comparing race engines in a racing environment won't necessarily apply to us though.
Still doing 3k OCIs with M1
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ScottB - depending on your service duty ..I would be interested in your used oil. It's a shame we don't live closer
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No thanks. I'll stick with my 3000 and 5000 mile changes. If anyone local to me wants my old oil and filters, they're yours for the taking. I have Mobil Clean 5000 10W30, Mobil 1 T&SUV 5W40 and Purolator Premium Plus L14670 and L20252 filters available to those that really buy into this "old oil is better than new oil" B.S.

edit-For those that might be interested in taking this stuff off of my hands, the 10W30 and L14670 combo gets changed every 3000 and the 5W40 and L20252 combo gets changed every 5000.
 
Your close 99 ...but you just don't have the depth of conviction that ScottB has for that "Still doing 3k OCIs with M1" slogan there. You aren't nearly as pleased with your OCIOCD.
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ScottB, it sounds like it doesn't really matter if the experiment gets done or not. You and 99 (and others) aren't making decisions based on data anyway. Providing more data will not help you guys.
 
I didn't want to admit it, but I don't travel by sea because I'm afraid of falling off the edge of the earth. I've seen those fake pictures that are supposed to have been taken from space. I think that those pictures are motivated by either marketing or meeting a government regulation. I'll stick to travel by land until someone proves that the earth is round. And, you know that will not happen anytime soon. Just look out your window. The earth is obviously flat!

Darn it! A black cat just ran down the hall.

Knock on wood guys..
 
quote:

Originally posted by Bryanccfshr:
Why is this so hard to comprehend? No one wants to run used drained oil not knowing if your engine is contaminated with coolant or otherwise.
The question is if engine conditioned oil that is still free of excessive insolubles with adequate active additives remaining is providing better wear protection.
The practical application if the answer is yes would mean that by extending OCI's without overly depleting the oil would provide for less wear than shorter OCI's.


Give it up because you will NEVER see this in a real gasoline burning engine. In a controlled environment like a lab, you'd probably see or have the optimum conditions to get your "clean old oil" or whatever. Once again, the lab rats have presented things that do not fit reality. As far as I know, most all of us here use the real world and not labs to come to conclusions about the oil in our engines. I say keep the scientific jibber jabber to a miniumum because, well, it really doesn't apply here in terms of what we see in real life. Maybe the forum needs to dedicate a section to scientific only or theory only banter to keep the issues separate. By the way, I knew NOBODY would pony up to either Astrovic's or my offer to take old oil (and filters in my case) off of our hands. Good day folks.
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Sounds simple enough to me. The whole thread is dedicated to speculating "what happens to allow this to be ..A: true B: apparently true C: apparently true but false ...or D: All of the above depending on which study/data/engine/oil that your observing at the time.


What I've been conditioned to see in any type of study is "what are the "en vouge" implications". For example, if lighter weight oils are "en vogue" ..then those getting published tend to conduct experiments that imply that result.

If I wanted to bolster the extended drain in some evolution to longer drains ...and found resistance to the notion. You would then configure your testing that would lead to the conclusion that you would be serving yourself better with "seasoned" oil as opposed to newer oil.

That's what I see in all tests.
 
Gary Allen, I believe your observation is correct. Researchers perform studies and publish papers because they are funded by someone with an agenda. Not that the science is compromised, it is simply goal oriented towards proving a predetermined result.
 
quote:

Originally posted by 99:
Once again, the lab rats have presented things that do not fit reality. As far as I know, most all of us here use the real world and not labs to come to conclusions about the oil in our engines.

My thoughts EXACTLY!

I'm 100% confident I could post stellar UOAs on my used full-synthetic Havoline 5W30, my synthetic blend TropArtic 5W30, or my dino Havoline 5W30, all showing plenty of active TBN left and no contaminants in the sample, and yet not a soul on this board would take me up on my offer.
 
I went back through all 4 pages of this thread and it was obvious how childish AstroVic has been. There are many excellent posts and every once in a while, AstroVic pops in and wants so bad to give us his used oil. It reminds me of that annoying kid in class that just won't stop waving his hand to get the opportunity to say something stupid and when he does, everyone rolls their eyes. You are a policeman according to your sig and this thread has postings by people very knowledgable about tribology...you provided no benefit here and are only embarrassing yourself.

Now for member 99. Your sig says you are an engineer, so your postings surprise me. On what do you base your decision to drain your M1 T&SUV at 5k miles? You mentioned that the lab rats have presented things that do not fit reality. I assume that you define reality as the statement that brand new oil will produce the LEAST wear. How have you come to the conclusion that that is the truth/reality? You must make this a comparison of new oil vs 100 miles used, 200 miles used,...5000 miles used,...etc. Not just new oil vs "shot" oil, which is a no-brainer.
 
quote:

Originally posted by GMorg:
ScottB, it sounds like it doesn't really matter if the experiment gets done or not. You and 99 (and others) aren't making decisions based on data anyway. Providing more data will not help you guys.

Whoa there Gmorg! I said your experiment sounded good, and I'd be willing to look at something like that to make a decision.
As it is, I don't see anything yet that has made me change my mind.
I'm not being childish, I'm here to learn, and until someone convinces me that I'm wrong, I'm listening, but not changing.

When i see solid evidence that fresh oil is not as good as moderately used oil, then I'd be willing to concede.

Your hypothetical experiment sounds good to me - but I don't see anyone doing it.

I suppose part of me could believe that an oil in a properly-running engine that used oil at some point picks up softer metals and carries them in solution to help protect surface-to-surface wear, but that's as far as I can see at this point.

Don't make assumptions about me here - I'm very open-minded.

Scott

Still sticking to 3k OCI M1 + OEM filter
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quote:

Originally posted by JAG:
I went back through all 4 pages of this thread and it was obvious how childish AstroVic has been. There are many excellent posts and every once in a while, AstroVic pops in and wants so bad to give us his used oil. It reminds me of that annoying kid in class that just won't stop waving his hand to get the opportunity to say something stupid and when he does, everyone rolls their eyes. You are a policeman according to your sig and this thread has postings by people very knowledgable about tribology...you provided no benefit here and are only embarrassing yourself.

I'm just making a real-world point, but you're just an engineer so I'm sure you wouldn't know anything about that, would you?

Lighten up, dude. This is a WEB-BOARD where opinions are freely exchanged.
 
quote:

By Scottb: When i see solid evidence that fresh oil is not as good as moderately used oil, then I'd be willing to concede.

There are two key pieces of evidence that support the contention that Moderately used oil is better than new oil (with respect to wear rates).

1. The study by SWRI where the used radioactive tracer technology to measure wear in "real time" They found that new oil produces more wear particles than old oil.(the link is provided on the first page of this thread).

2. If you look at UOA data, and plot wear/mi vs OCI. You find a direct correlation that shows that moderately used oil produces wear metals at a slower rate than new oil. (as I showed with my chart).


Are you willing to concede?
 
Winston: what variety of engines were used to get the data points?
Which oils were used?
Filters?
At what speeds were the engines run?

From the last paragraph:
"...If the finding is verified, the mechanisms should be determined, and ramifications with respect to oil change intervals, filter involvement, and additive packages should be considered..."

This is hardly conclusive, and is from 1999. What's happened since then?

Scott
 
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