Ok to use m1 0w40 over m1 5w30?

[sifan]

I have been using the pre-luber, which I installed 10 years ago, on my 2003 Toyota Echo (currently 133 KM on the engine). The pre-luber uses a 10 Amp motor for pumping oil. When I installed the pre-luber, I used a long hose in my setup which went against the product recommendation of using shortest hose as possible to minimize pumping resistance during cold weather. All these years I have been using M1 5w30 for better cold temperature flow and also as recommended oil grade by Toyota. The pre-luber automatically runs for 10 seconds before engine startup and another 10 seconds after engine shutoff which drains a lot of juice from my Odyssey PC1200 battery. When the temperature drops close to freezing, the pre-luber has a really hard time pumping the oil through the long hose. I always need to turn on the oil pan heater to heat up the oil prior engine startup every winter morning to prevent the 10 Amp fuse from blown. Because the severe drain on the Odyssey batter I have to replace it every 5 to 6 years. Trying to prolong the life of my expensive battery I attached a battery charger (compatible to Odyssey battery) to trickle charge the battery overnight on daily basis. This week I have to replace my 2nd PC1200 battery, which can not even be jumped. I replace it with a bigger one, PC1500. An Odyssey battery is supposed to last 10 years or should at least last longer than regular lead acid battery. I contribute the short life spans of my two PC1200s to the pre-luber application. I am thinking of using M1 0w40 all year around instead of M1 5w30 for better low temperature oil flow to ease the pumping from the pre-luber and, in turn, to reduce strain on the battery. Do you think 0w40 oil will damage my engine due to not enough oil thickness at the low end?

 

[justalubetech]

even a zero winter rating is way thicker than what it will be at full operating temp., it would be fine. I would probably use a 0W-30 though

 

[turtlevette]

How much oil pressure registers from the pre luber? 10 amps is really not that much and should not kill a battery. Batteries like bring fast discharged to break up the sulphates on the plates.

Mobil 0w-20 would provide the best cold weather pumpability. The 0w-40 might not be any better than the 5w-30.

 

[simple_gifts]

Why go up a grade; I'd be using 0w-20 or 5w-20 to address that issue.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: sifan
Do you think 0w40 oil will damage my engine due to not enough oil thickness at the low end?



You're thinking about this all wrong. I'll let someone else explain it. I'm a terrible teacher.

 

[HerrStig]

Toyota engines will go 300 K without that kind of gadget. But, whatever blows your skirt up.

 

[sifan]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
How much oil pressure registers from the pre luber? 10 amps is really not that much and should not kill a battery. Batteries like bring fast discharged to break up the sulphates on the plates.

Mobil 0w-20 would provide the best cold weather pumpability. The 0w-40 might not be any better than the 5w-30.




I do not know the answer since I never measure the oil pressure. The low oil pressure warning light goes out in 1 to 2 seconds after pre-luber in action. In winter the pump sounds louder as it works harder to pump cold thick oil.

For all year round application will 0w20 be suitable for summer driving? Since I don't drive it a lot, I only change the oil once a year.

 

[sifan]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Toyota engines will go 300 K without that kind of gadget. But, whatever blows your skirt up.


With pre-luber and two Frantz bypass filters (oil and ATF) installed on my Echo it just makes me feel good that I have given the best care. The benefits will become obvious as its mileage reaching 300K.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: sifan
I am thinking of using M1 0w40 all year around instead of M1 5w30 for better low temperature oil flow to ease the pumping from the pre-luber and, in turn, to reduce strain on the battery. Do you think 0w40 oil will damage my engine due to not enough oil thickness at the low end?


M1 0w-40 is heavier than M1 5w-30 at basically every temperature until we are well below 0C where the 0w-40 simply thickens less than the 5w-30.

ALL oils get heavier as the temperature drops. The 0w-xx designation is a not a weight, it is a qualification of the oil's cold temp flow measured via CCS/MRV (Cold Cranking Simulator, Mini Rotary Viscometer).

An oil with a 0w-xx designation simply has the ability to flow better/pump better at lower temperatures than an oil with a 5w-xx designation, which in turn has better low temp performance than an oil with a 10w-xx designation....etc.

Above 0C the difference in actual viscosity between grades is not all that great. If you look at the two points VI (Viscosity Index) is calculated from, 100C and 40C, you'll see that between a 5w-30 and a 0w-40 there is not a huge difference.

Where there IS a large difference is well below 0C where an oil begins to greatly increase in viscosity. Somewhere at this point an oil's viscosity measured via the CCS or MRV method will roughly double with every 5C drop in temperature. So at temps just below zero, where we are dealing with viscosity in the 100's of cP, the difference between a 5w-30 and 0w-30 would be insignificant, but as the temperature drops further down, this gap grows significantly. At -30C, the CCS limit for a 5w-xx is 6,600cP. It will be close to that. For a 0w-xx, the limit is measured at an additional 5C colder, -35C and is 6,200cP:

At this point, the difference in viscosity between the two lubes is significant, the 0w-30 will be roughly half the viscosity of the 5w-30 @ -30C, so for example's sake, if we had a 5w-30 with a CCS of 5,200cP @ -30C, the 0w-30 could conceivably be 2,500cP; it will be less than 6,200cP when doubled, which is its qualifier to carry the 0w-xx designation.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: sifan
Do you think 0w40 oil will damage my engine due to not enough oil thickness at the low end?



You're thinking about this all wrong. I'll let someone else explain it. I'm a terrible teacher.


turtlevette you're a good teacher you just don't want to explain motor oil basics for the umpteenth time!

For the OP, MI 0W-40 is two grades heavier than what you require. In your climate it will be way heavier than a 5W-20 on start-up on the coldest Maryland winters day. The 0W rating of an oil simply means the oil will pump at -40 degrees

 

[SuperDave456]

As has been said before, with the exception of well below 0F, a 0w40 will always be thicker than a 5w30.

Why 30 weight in that engine when it's rated for a 20 weight?
Just curious.

With all the extra volume from the pump, hoses, and additional filtration, you also have added area for the oil to cool. Therefore even at "running tempature" your 30 weight oil is going to be running on the cooler side, and therefore the thicker side of the 30 weight spectrum than you'd think.

This additional cooling, from the additional volume of oil, I'd feel very comfortable going to the thinnest 20 weight synthetic and doing multi-year Oil Change Intervals after pulling samples from the dipstick every 5,000 miles.

I'd be going to Mobil 1 5w20 or 0w20 and call it a day.
It will be thinner than either at any tempature and work better year round.

 

[simple_gifts]

Quote:

Why 30 weight in that engine when it's rated for a 20 weight?


Someone pointed out recently that even new yaris specify 5w-30; the reference to 20 weight comes from the Toyota of Canada PDF that is widely circulated.

Regardless I would/and have run a 20 weight in that engine.

 

[SuperDave456]

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Quote:

Why 30 weight in that engine when it's rated for a 20 weight?


Someone pointed out recently that even new yaris specify 5w-30; the reference to 20 weight comes from the Toyota of Canada PDF that is widely circulated.

Regardless I would/and have run a 20 weight in that engine.


Fascinating.
I didn't know this.
I wonder if that engine in that compact format runs a bit hotter and that's why the specify a 30 weight.
Goes to show you learn something everyday!

 

[geeman789]

Originally Posted By: sifan
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Toyota engines will go 300 K without that kind of gadget. But, whatever blows your skirt up.


With pre-luber and two Frantz bypass filters (oil and ATF) installed on my Echo it just makes me feel good that I have given the best care. The benefits will become obvious as its mileage reaching 300K.


Wow... pre-luber , a by-pass filter and short OCI on synthetic oil... on an Echo...!

Can one care TOO MUCH...?

 

[sifan]

Thanks to all. I will experiment M1 0W20 and see if the situation will improve this winter.

 

[ag_ghost]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: sifan
I am thinking of using M1 0w40 all year around instead of M1 5w30 for better low temperature oil flow to ease the pumping from the pre-luber and, in turn, to reduce strain on the battery. Do you think 0w40 oil will damage my engine due to not enough oil thickness at the low end?


M1 0w-40 is heavier than M1 5w-30 at basically every temperature until we are well below 0C where the 0w-40 simply thickens less than the 5w-30.

ALL oils get heavier as the temperature drops. The 0w-xx designation is a not a weight, it is a qualification of the oil's cold temp flow measured via CCS/MRV (Cold Cranking Simulator, Mini Rotary Viscometer).

An oil with a 0w-xx designation simply has the ability to flow better/pump better at lower temperatures than an oil with a 5w-xx designation, which in turn has better low temp performance than an oil with a 10w-xx designation....etc.

Above 0C the difference in actual viscosity between grades is not all that great. If you look at the two points VI (Viscosity Index) is calculated from, 100C and 40C, you'll see that between a 5w-30 and a 0w-40 there is not a huge difference.

Where there IS a large difference is well below 0C where an oil begins to greatly increase in viscosity. Somewhere at this point an oil's viscosity measured via the CCS or MRV method will roughly double with every 5C drop in temperature. So at temps just below zero, where we are dealing with viscosity in the 100's of cP, the difference between a 5w-30 and 0w-30 would be insignificant, but as the temperature drops further down, this gap grows significantly. At -30C, the CCS limit for a 5w-xx is 6,600cP. It will be close to that. For a 0w-xx, the limit is measured at an additional 5C colder, -35C and is 6,200cP:

At this point, the difference in viscosity between the two lubes is significant, the 0w-30 will be roughly half the viscosity of the 5w-30 @ -30C, so for example's sake, if we had a 5w-30 with a CCS of 5,200cP @ -30C, the 0w-30 could conceivably be 2,500cP; it will be less than 6,200cP when doubled, which is its qualifier to carry the 0w-xx designation.

FWIW, good summary.
Kevin

 

[CELICA_XX]

Originally Posted By: SuperDave456
Why 30 weight in that engine when it's rated for a 20 weight?

It's a 30 weight motor.



Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Someone pointed out recently that even new yaris specify 5w-30; the reference to 20 weight comes from the Toyota of Canada PDF that is widely circulated.

Yeah, Toyota really goes out of their way to keep this motor on 5w30 when so many of their other vehicles use 20 weight.