Oil's affect on motorcycle gear shift feel?

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
I spent an hour looking for an RC45 oil squirter.


I could have saved you time because they are called "piston oil jets"...

 

[Shannow]

got a pic ?

supply hole and nozzle size ?

 

[Skid]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Take Larry's measured figures at 6,000RPM, and assume Mr Honda's squirters are 1.0mm dia.

Oils are considered at 100C, as that's what the KV is on the data sheet.
30W - 60 psi - M1 AFE
40W - 84 psi - M 4T 10W40
50W - 90 psi. - M 4T 15W50

Flow Rate through each squirter in litres per minute (using Benoulli's equation)
30W at 60 psi - 4.6 l/min
40W at 84 psi - 5.4 l/min
50W at 90 psi - 5.6 l/min

All at pump relief (99psi)...5.9l/s

Now the piston cooling is clearly dependent on piston cooling squirter flow, so by choosing an oil simply because you don't want flow through the pump relief means nearly a 20% reduction in piston squirter flow in the mid range....simple physics.

But you'll bring up molasses and water again...

That's where Reynolds' Number Correction comes in, and again, I'll point you back to my discussion on the operation of squirters, having a larger diameter section before the nozzle, so that the orifice, pressure, and density are controlling the squirter flow, not the viscous effects of the fluid.

For the three oils and pressure, Re
30W - Re is 940
40W - Re is 760
50W - Re is 640

D2/D1 is the ratio of the hole to the feed pipe.

Clearly, the smaller the number (bigger feed for smaller orifice), the flatter the curve is in the range of Re's that we are talking for a piston squirter.

In the range of 0.5 (hole half feed pipe diameter), to 0.1 (hole 1/10 of pipe diameter) there's SFA difference (and you can see that the thinner viscosity is actually choked a little more (flows less) than the thicker oils around the 600 mark)...not enough to write home about


Again, if you are lubing your engine with Mollasses, and your mate is running water in his, YMMV, but engine oils at operating temperature aren't molasses versus water, whatever strawman you are trying to create.


Thanks for this Shannow. Intersting calculations - I had wondered myself about flow through jets and pressure vs. viscosity.

One additional note is that sometimes there is a check valve in the path for a piston oil squirter. I've seen anywhere from 10-20 psi to 50 psi before the check valve even allows oil to get to the jet.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
got a pic ?

supply hole and nozzle size ?


I found a more detail drawing but pulling and measuring the jets is going to have to wait for the next throttle body removal...

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Analyzer


Come on BLS, it is completely and utterly irrelevant whether or not Shannow does or doesn't own a motorcycle, it's the knowledge and factual information that one brings to the table that determines their relevancy in this forum (of which Shannow consistently does).


Factual information looks good on paper... but the real question is there any actual hands
on motorcycle experience that powers that knowledge??? you wouldn't toss Shannow your key
unless assured he has been through MSF or Keith Code...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Factual information looks good on paper... but the real question is there any actual hands
on motorcycle experience that powers that knowledge??? you wouldn't toss Shannow your key
unless assured he has been through MSF or Keith Code...


And you wouldn't trust the flow calculations of a plastic surgeon or non engineer...would you ?

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Shannow


And you wouldn't trust the flow calculations of a plastic surgeon or non engineer...would you ?



We trust that somehow both good and topical will come from a non
motorcyclist in a motorcycle forum... please note the topic is
"motorcycle gear shift feel" not who's flow calculations to trust...
real world experiences are reverent because they have ways of busting
out and making us correct our pet theories on paper... so ask yourself
do I have any personal motorcycle experience worth talking about on
the topic of feel???

 

[GT Mike]

I've only used two oils in my bike after I drained out whatever stuff they had in it when I bought it with 3k miles on it. (I'm assuming they changed it?)
I generally use Schaeffer's #707 V-Twin 20w50 and it definitely lets you know when it's getting tired... For this bike and my riding style, that's a tick over 3500 miles. I'll do 5k OCIs, but the last 1500 are considerably more "notchy" or "crunchy" feeling, and it's harder to find neutral.
One change I used Mobil 1 20w50 V-Twin, and that had the shifting feel of worn out Schaeffer's until I got some miles on it, then it started to get better. Dare I say even better than new Schaeffer's? But I digress... By ~4000 miles, it must have sheared so far out of grade that I could start hearing strange mechanical noises that weren't there when I first filled it, and disappeared again after a change back to Schaeffer's.
Only other thing I noticed was that the M1 made the clutch seem to "bite" a little harder. Thinking this might be to the extra moly and whatever Penetro is.

All the V-Rod guys seem to be humping the leg of Amsoil, but I can't justify its extra cost if I'm still only going to be doing a 5k OCI. If anything, I'd go to non-syn Valvoline and change it twice as often. I'd still be money ahead.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
... so ask yourself
do I have any personal motorcycle experience worth talking about on
the topic of feel???


Well then Larry, please explain exactly HOW your oli pressure readings relate to the topic at hand.

Do you have evidence of an oil pressure shift feel correlation ?

Does the 504 Rat test relate to, or correlate shift feel ?

Does Mr RC45, the Mr Honda between your legs photos of the speedo and your oil pressure gauge relate to shift feel ?

I was countering your continuing spouting of bull$[censored] that you drag into every thread.

Before you accuse me of contributing off topic information, please look at what I was responding to...your rubbish "facts"...that you wheel out every thread.

Start a Larry's oil 101, (which YOU keep turning threads into) and I'll be in that too...

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Shannow


And you wouldn't trust the flow calculations of a plastic surgeon or non engineer...would you ?



We trust that somehow both good and topical will come from a non
motorcyclist in a motorcycle forum... please note the topic is
"motorcycle gear shift feel" not who's flow calculations to trust...
real world experiences are reverent because they have ways of busting
out and making us correct our pet theories on paper... so ask yourself
do I have any personal motorcycle experience worth talking about on
the topic of feel???


You amuse me Larry. Seriously. When I need a laugh I just head on in to a thread where you've shared your oil "expertise" and I laugh out loud.
Sadly I think you've proven you are unable to grasp the concepts shannow is patiently trying to enlighten you on,yet you seem to know all.
Until you start posting,then it becomes abundantly clear cornholio has a tighter grasp.
If your shop is busy you must be a good salesman,or you have stupid customers. Either way peeing in your pants only keeps you warm for so long.
I'd love to be at the service desk when you start talking. If I thought your posts were funny in person I'd end up with a hernia.
Laughing at you Larry. Not with you.
Why do you even bother here. You contribute little to nothing and learn even less.
Old dog-new tricks I guess.
Perhaps osmosis would have a more positive effect,because explaining doesn't seem to work.

 

[Silk]

My sidevalve BSA single had a very truck like gearchange, and it was in a 650 frame and used the 650 gearbox with a huge gap between 2nd and 3rd...the 650 could handle this gap easy, but the 13 hp single struggled. I'd wind it right out to about 4,000rpm, retard the igntion as I shut the throttle and feel the shift through like it was an old Leyland, it'd land in 3rd at about 2,000rpm and slog away up to speed again.

We used to STP in engines in those days, thick goopy stuff and took ages to pour - so we'd upend the can over a container to catch the dregs, and over time we'd have some STP for personal use. I put some in the BSA gearbox - what a difference!! I could hardly feel the shifts now, and that 2nd to 3rd cap was no longer as much of a problem. Super thick is good!

 

[Robenstein]

I agree. I have no idea how BLS/Larry gets anyone to listen to him. His methodology for arguing his point is tenuous at best to nonsensical at its worst. For instance he just posted in this thread that you should listen to those Italian engineers in the manual for the oil specs. However, if those same engineers tell you to use a JASO MA spec oil, he will argue against them.

He has proved at many points in this forum that his grasp of science is poor. One just has to find his posts on the Doppler effect in the discussion on exhaust to see that.

 

[Ducman]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Shannow


And you wouldn't trust the flow calculations of a plastic surgeon or non engineer...would you ?



We trust that somehow both good and topical will come from a non
motorcyclist in a motorcycle forum... please note the topic is
"motorcycle gear shift feel" not who's flow calculations to trust...
real world experiences are reverent because they have ways of busting
out and making us correct our pet theories on paper... so ask yourself
do I have any personal motorcycle experience worth talking about on
the topic of feel???


Well I'll chime in with my personal experience in relation to the thread in an effort to stay on topic.

In my experience oil does play a roll to varying degrees on the quality of the shift feel.
Whether it be oil type, grade or brand of oil.
Or whether one is sticking with the same oil at all times as a base line reference.
The machine also responds differently depending upon the state of the oil between OCI's, which can fall between a wide tolerance depending upon how it's been ridden or the state of the machine between OCI's.
For example, if the machine has had a tuning problem(say with a faulty TPS), then the oil is always degraded more than usual due to a poor state of tune which shows as an increase in fuel dilution in the UOA.

Of course it's all purely subjective by any standard.
And it also depends upon the make and model of the machine (to varying degrees).

I am constantly reminded of the significance of the issue every time I perform an oil change on any of my 3 motorcycles.
1 has an OCI of 8000 Kms, the other 2 typically have an OCI of half the manufacturers recommended interval which equates to 6000 Kms.

Shift quality is excellent on all 3 machines at all times, with a noticeable improvement after each and every oil change on any machine.
Overall the decline in shift quality is not noticeable as it's so gradual.
But the difference is noticeable after the oil change.

I don't have it as a factor in my mind when performing an oil change at all.
Actually I forget about the degradation in shift quality being present.
It's not until the first ride after the oil change that I'm pleasantly reminded of the benefits of having fresh oil.

Lets stay on topic then.

 

[Ducman]

Originally Posted By: GT Mike
I've only used two oils in my bike after I drained out whatever stuff they had in it when I bought it with 3k miles on it. (I'm assuming they changed it?)
I generally use Schaeffer's #707 V-Twin 20w50 and it definitely lets you know when it's getting tired... For this bike and my riding style, that's a tick over 3500 miles. I'll do 5k OCIs, but the last 1500 are considerably more "notchy" or "crunchy" feeling, and it's harder to find neutral.
One change I used Mobil 1 20w50 V-Twin, and that had the shifting feel of worn out Schaeffer's until I got some miles on it, then it started to get better. Dare I say even better than new Schaeffer's? But I digress... By ~4000 miles, it must have sheared so far out of grade that I could start hearing strange mechanical noises that weren't there when I first filled it, and disappeared again after a change back to Schaeffer's.
Only other thing I noticed was that the M1 made the clutch seem to "bite" a little harder. Thinking this might be to the extra moly and whatever Penetro is.

All the V-Rod guys seem to be humping the leg of Amsoil, but I can't justify its extra cost if I'm still only going to be doing a 5k OCI. If anything, I'd go to non-syn Valvoline and change it twice as often. I'd still be money ahead.


As an aside.
One of my machines is a variant of the V-Rod.
It's actually a VRSCR (Street Rod) with the 1130 CC engine.

After Amsoil reformulated their MC oils and changed the 20w-50 from AMV to MCV back in about 2005, the improvement in the results of the UOA's was quite noticeable.
More specifically, the difference in oil shearing was greatly reduced over the full 8000 KM OCI.

Amsoil 20w-50 grade (MCV) has got me humping quite furiously, and it's better than Viagra.

Absolutely no problems with MCV in all 3 of my machines now.

Even with only 5 PPM of Moly.

 

[Ducman]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
... so ask yourself
do I have any personal motorcycle experience worth talking about on
the topic of feel???


Well then Larry, please explain exactly HOW your oli pressure readings relate to the topic at hand.

Do you have evidence of an oil pressure shift feel correlation ?

Does the 504 Rat test relate to, or correlate shift feel ?

Does Mr RC45, the Mr Honda between your legs photos of the speedo and your oil pressure gauge relate to shift feel ?

I was countering your continuing spouting of bull$[censored] that you drag into every thread.

Before you accuse me of contributing off topic information, please look at what I was responding to...your rubbish "facts"...that you wheel out every thread.

Start a Larry's oil 101, (which YOU keep turning threads into) and I'll be in that too...


+ 1

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Shannow


Well then Larry, please explain exactly HOW your oli pressure readings relate to the topic at hand.


I was sharing my experiences with the author digitalSniperX1 when he noted the mixed
experiences among people who race bikes on the use of bike specific oil vs car oil...

He responded with "Good stuff!"

What you see are two motorcyclist talking "kick stand"...

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
I agree. I have no idea how BLS/Larry gets anyone to listen to him.


You can listen to the Phd cager if you wish because if Shannow rode a
motorcycle (and I pray to God someday he will) he'd run a 30 synthetic
weight just like I do... he post charts and graphs to support his
choice and I post real life experiences to support mine... what is
import is that we both agree when given a choice between a 30 40 or 50
weight oil 30 weight gets the nod...

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
I agree. I have no idea how BLS/Larry gets anyone to listen to him.


You can listen to the Phd cager if you wish because if Shannow rode a
motorcycle (and I pray to God someday he will) he'd run a 30 synthetic
weight just like I do... he post charts and graphs to support his
choice and I post real life experiences to support mine... what is
import is that we both agree when given a choice between a 30 40 or 50
weight oil 30 weight gets the nod...


You scoffed at my real life experiences with using a lower viscosity oil in a wet-sump bike, and how after switching to the lower viscosity oil, in order to reduce drag, I immediately noticed fretting on the transmission gears. This after repeated teardowns of the engine and trans showed the gears holding up with no signs of excess wear, when running a 15w50.

I'm a life-long Motorcyclist (since the age of 6, anyway) I also have "cages", and I've worked on some of the most extreme vehicles which are powered by an IC engine. A low viscosity oil is not always the answer.

Now an old RC45 which makes around 100 rwhp, isn't a particularly highly stressed engine. Certainly nowhere near the stress they were subjected to in WSBK tune. Where rebuilding the engines after a few races at most, was the norm. In your low-stress streetbike application, you're getting away with running a 30 weight oil. Not everyone has a bike in such a mild tune, that they can run a 30 weight oil without issues.

 

[02SE]

If I could edit, it would read: wet-sump, wet-clutch, shared-sump bike.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: 02SE
You scoffed at my real life experiences with using a lower viscosity oil in a wet-sump bike


I did... I still don't believe your Land Speed Record Turbo Suzuki making approx. 3 times
the horsepower of the AMA Superbike should serve as a guide for an owner looking to drop
from a 50 to a 40 like you did... if you fretted gears dropping 3 cSt in oil viscosity
going from a 50 to a 40 then you're on the ragged edge of durability to begin with...

Originally Posted By: 02SE

Now an old RC45 which makes around 100 rwhp, isn't a particularly highly stressed engine. Certainly nowhere near the stress they were subjected to in WSBK tune. Where rebuilding the engines after a few races at most, was the norm. In your low-stress streetbike application, you're getting away with running a 30 weight oil. Not everyone has a bike in such a mild tune, that they can run a 30 weight oil without issues.


Mr.RC45 is a 21 year old 750 but he's not old hat... he'll dyno a respectful 116RWHP in
his stock state of tune however HRC never quit lowering internal drag (30 weight oil) and
upping the power and according to my friend Al Ludington Honda's gear box never suffered
gear fretting...

Quote Al Ludington
"We had the RC45 up to 16,000 rpms 185 rear wheel horsepower and in
endurance race trim down to 302 pounds the weight limit was 300
pounds. At HRC the 2 stroke engineers on the NSR 500 got into a race
with the 4 stroke engineers on the RC45 as who could produce the most
horsepower. when the FIM changed the rules from leaded fuel to
unleaded the 2 stroke engineers lost about 5hp by which the 4 stroke
engineers claimed victory."