I went with the Valvoline 20-50 convention mc oil largely due to Alarmguys recommendation of the oil . I have a 2013 Road star . I hve 4 qts. of the 10-40 Valvoline MC oil that I plan on using either before I put the bike up for the winter or very shortly after getting it back out. Live in Indiana so the bike will set for most of 4 months.
Oil's affect on motorcycle gear shift feel?
- Thread starter digitalSniperX1
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Well my experience with automatic wet clutch on bike definitely tell the fm on oil play big part on engagement. It is true most motul 4t oil give smooth shifting. I still think for 30w motul 300v is the best i ever try.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
the gear durability is linked to the HTHS, not the "gravity flow" as you call it.
Even Honda report gear pitting below an HTHS of 3.1.
Gear durability is linked to the additive package for it is primarily what creates an oil’s film strength... the additive package is what contains the extreme pressure anti-wear components...
the gear durability is linked to the HTHS, not the "gravity flow" as you call it.
Even Honda report gear pitting below an HTHS of 3.1.
Gear durability is linked to the additive package for it is primarily what creates an oil’s film strength... the additive package is what contains the extreme pressure anti-wear components...
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Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Grampi, you are right, especially since there is so much Group III basestock out there sold as "synthetics" eventhough it is just HIGHLY refined crude.
True...
In a fully synthetic oil made from crude, the molecules have the same
size and composition which decreases friction and consumes less HP
whereas in a straight mineral oil the molecules vary in size and
composition which increases friction and consumes more HP...
Grampi, you are right, especially since there is so much Group III basestock out there sold as "synthetics" eventhough it is just HIGHLY refined crude.
True...
In a fully synthetic oil made from crude, the molecules have the same
size and composition which decreases friction and consumes less HP
whereas in a straight mineral oil the molecules vary in size and
composition which increases friction and consumes more HP...
Do you just never pay attention? Come on, tell me how a 15 cSt mineral oil has more internal friction than a 15 cSt fully synthetic..
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
In a fully synthetic oil made from crude, the molecules have the same
size and composition which decreases friction and consumes less HP
whereas in a straight mineral oil the molecules vary in size and
composition which increases friction and consumes more HP...
Absolute rubbish, and the pictures that you keep posting don't make it true.
In a fully synthetic oil made from crude, the molecules have the same
size and composition which decreases friction and consumes less HP
whereas in a straight mineral oil the molecules vary in size and
composition which increases friction and consumes more HP...
Absolute rubbish, and the pictures that you keep posting don't make it true.
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Gear durability is linked to the additive package for it is primarily what creates an oil’s film strength
No, oil provides oil's "film strength". The "film" is hydrodynamic lubrication, which is caused by a difference in surface speeds, load and viscosity.
More viscosity = more "film thickness"
Less load = more "film thickness"
More speed differential = more "film thickness"
hydrodynamic is essentially "zero wear" (an old name for it.
When the hydrodynamic separation breaks down, then the additives come into play in mixed and boundary, and react with the surface of the contacting materials, and form slippery "soap" like film, that consumes parent metal, and shears off without taking pieces of metal with it.
These are the AW/FM additives.
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
... the additive package is what contains the extreme pressure anti-wear components...
True...after the oil "film thickness" approximates zero by being too thin, through either dropping the viscosity, increasing the load, or reducing relative speeds...a differential relies on additives.
Problem is that spur gears on parallel shafts have little speed differential between the surfaces...perfect gears have a rolling contact on the teeth, and rely on the effect of squeezing oil through small clearances to "keep them separated"...that's a viscosity thing to fix.
http://www.infineuminsight.com/insight/dec-2013/ultimate-motorcycle-protection
Quote:
Phosphorus is known to form a protective film between metal parts, which can provide some protection against wear and gear pitting. But, if the oil film becomes very thin, raising lubricant phosphorus limits alone cannot guarantee sufficient protection. In addition, we know that the future tightening of emissions regulations is likely to force a reduction in phosphorus due to its impact on the catalyst.
OEMs have provided oil quality limits, such as HTHS (>2.9 mPa.s) and phosphorus (0.08-0.12 ppm) to offer minimum protection,. But to ensure hardware protection they are keen to have a gear pitting test – although this still appears to be some way off.
http://www.infineuminsight.com/insight/dec-2013/ultimate-motorcycle-protection
Gear durability is linked to the additive package for it is primarily what creates an oil’s film strength
No, oil provides oil's "film strength". The "film" is hydrodynamic lubrication, which is caused by a difference in surface speeds, load and viscosity.
More viscosity = more "film thickness"
Less load = more "film thickness"
More speed differential = more "film thickness"
hydrodynamic is essentially "zero wear" (an old name for it.
When the hydrodynamic separation breaks down, then the additives come into play in mixed and boundary, and react with the surface of the contacting materials, and form slippery "soap" like film, that consumes parent metal, and shears off without taking pieces of metal with it.
These are the AW/FM additives.
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
... the additive package is what contains the extreme pressure anti-wear components...
True...after the oil "film thickness" approximates zero by being too thin, through either dropping the viscosity, increasing the load, or reducing relative speeds...a differential relies on additives.
Problem is that spur gears on parallel shafts have little speed differential between the surfaces...perfect gears have a rolling contact on the teeth, and rely on the effect of squeezing oil through small clearances to "keep them separated"...that's a viscosity thing to fix.
http://www.infineuminsight.com/insight/dec-2013/ultimate-motorcycle-protection
Quote:
Phosphorus is known to form a protective film between metal parts, which can provide some protection against wear and gear pitting. But, if the oil film becomes very thin, raising lubricant phosphorus limits alone cannot guarantee sufficient protection. In addition, we know that the future tightening of emissions regulations is likely to force a reduction in phosphorus due to its impact on the catalyst.
OEMs have provided oil quality limits, such as HTHS (>2.9 mPa.s) and phosphorus (0.08-0.12 ppm) to offer minimum protection,. But to ensure hardware protection they are keen to have a gear pitting test – although this still appears to be some way off.
http://www.infineuminsight.com/insight/dec-2013/ultimate-motorcycle-protection
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Mercy Shannow are you getting a kick back for promoting their oil??? I see evidence of a
bent shifting fork not a failure of the oil...
Mercy Shannow are you getting a kick back for promoting their oil??? I see evidence of a
bent shifting fork not a failure of the oil...
Originally Posted By: Atesz792
Come on, tell me how a 15 cSt mineral oil has more internal friction than a 15 cSt fully synthetic..
Whats missing from your 15 cSt Syn to Min comparison is temp... in
order to establish a credible cSt number requires a Lab to heat the
oil sample to the standard 212ºF operating temp... but if you want the
Min to flow 15 cSt as the 15 cSt Syn it requires adding more heat to the
Min to equal the free flowing Syn... so if you test your 15 cSt Syn and
15 cSt Min at the standard operating temp of 212ºF you will note that
the Syn will flow more than Min due to the fact "Synthetics are
derived by a different refining process to offer better performance
owing to their consistent molecular structure and purity."
Come on, tell me how a 15 cSt mineral oil has more internal friction than a 15 cSt fully synthetic..
Whats missing from your 15 cSt Syn to Min comparison is temp... in
order to establish a credible cSt number requires a Lab to heat the
oil sample to the standard 212ºF operating temp... but if you want the
Min to flow 15 cSt as the 15 cSt Syn it requires adding more heat to the
Min to equal the free flowing Syn... so if you test your 15 cSt Syn and
15 cSt Min at the standard operating temp of 212ºF you will note that
the Syn will flow more than Min due to the fact "Synthetics are
derived by a different refining process to offer better performance
owing to their consistent molecular structure and purity."
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Absolute rubbish, and the pictures that you keep posting don't make it true.
Quote Kew Engineering and their photo... they are a lubrication consulting
firm and not a marketing department...
"Synthetics are derived by a different refining process to offer better performance owing to
their consistent molecular structure and purity."
Absolute rubbish, and the pictures that you keep posting don't make it true.
Quote Kew Engineering and their photo... they are a lubrication consulting
firm and not a marketing department...
"Synthetics are derived by a different refining process to offer better performance owing to
their consistent molecular structure and purity."
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Absolute rubbish, and the pictures that you keep posting don't make it true.
Quote Kew Engineering and their photo... they are a lubrication consulting
firm and not a marketing department...
"Synthetics are derived by a different refining process to offer better performance owing to
their consistent molecular structure and purity."
the ball bearings are an incorrect visual representation to get the idea of uniformity through to dumba$$es, not representative of anything actually physically happening in the oil...the balls and the ramp even worse.
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Whats missing from your 15 cSt Syn to Min comparison is temp... in
order to establish a credible cSt number requires a Lab to heat the
oil sample to the standard 212ºF operating temp... but if you want the Min to flow 15 cSt as the 15 cSt Syn it requires adding more heat to the Min to equal the free flowing Syn... so if you test your 15 cSt Syn and 15 cSt Min at the standard operating temp of 212ºF you will note that the Syn will flow more than Min due to the fact "Synthetics are derived by a different refining process to offer better performance owing to their consistent molecular structure and purity."
What ?????
utter rubbish...
15cst at 100C is 15Cst at 100C ... it's the (to quote you) "gravity flow"...by definition, two fluids with 15Cst at 100C have identical gravity flow, whether they are synthetic or mineral, or vegetable.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Absolute rubbish, and the pictures that you keep posting don't make it true.
Quote Kew Engineering and their photo... they are a lubrication consulting
firm and not a marketing department...
"Synthetics are derived by a different refining process to offer better performance owing to
their consistent molecular structure and purity."
the ball bearings are an incorrect visual representation to get the idea of uniformity through to dumba$$es, not representative of anything actually physically happening in the oil...the balls and the ramp even worse.
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Whats missing from your 15 cSt Syn to Min comparison is temp... in
order to establish a credible cSt number requires a Lab to heat the
oil sample to the standard 212ºF operating temp... but if you want the Min to flow 15 cSt as the 15 cSt Syn it requires adding more heat to the Min to equal the free flowing Syn... so if you test your 15 cSt Syn and 15 cSt Min at the standard operating temp of 212ºF you will note that the Syn will flow more than Min due to the fact "Synthetics are derived by a different refining process to offer better performance owing to their consistent molecular structure and purity."
What ?????
utter rubbish...
15cst at 100C is 15Cst at 100C ... it's the (to quote you) "gravity flow"...by definition, two fluids with 15Cst at 100C have identical gravity flow, whether they are synthetic or mineral, or vegetable.
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Quote Kew Engineering and their photo... they are a lubrication consulting
firm and not a marketing department...
Apparently they think that the lubricating layer is one molecule thick. That shows how little they must know about lubrication. Most marketing departments aren't that stupid.
Ed
Quote Kew Engineering and their photo... they are a lubrication consulting
firm and not a marketing department...
Apparently they think that the lubricating layer is one molecule thick. That shows how little they must know about lubrication. Most marketing departments aren't that stupid.
Ed
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Atesz792
Come on, tell me how a 15 cSt mineral oil has more internal friction than a 15 cSt fully synthetic..
Whats missing from your 15 cSt Syn to Min comparison is temp... in
order to establish a credible cSt number requires a Lab to heat the
oil sample to the standard 212ºF operating temp... but if you want the
Min to flow 15 cSt as the 15 cSt Syn it requires adding more heat to the
Min to equal the free flowing Syn... so if you test your 15 cSt Syn and
15 cSt Min at the standard operating temp of 212ºF you will note that
the Syn will flow more than Min due to the fact "Synthetics are
derived by a different refining process to offer better performance
owing to their consistent molecular structure and purity."
Sorry man, but all one can do about this post is laugh... absolutely no facts straight in there.
Originally Posted By: Atesz792
Come on, tell me how a 15 cSt mineral oil has more internal friction than a 15 cSt fully synthetic..
Whats missing from your 15 cSt Syn to Min comparison is temp... in
order to establish a credible cSt number requires a Lab to heat the
oil sample to the standard 212ºF operating temp... but if you want the
Min to flow 15 cSt as the 15 cSt Syn it requires adding more heat to the
Min to equal the free flowing Syn... so if you test your 15 cSt Syn and
15 cSt Min at the standard operating temp of 212ºF you will note that
the Syn will flow more than Min due to the fact "Synthetics are
derived by a different refining process to offer better performance
owing to their consistent molecular structure and purity."
Sorry man, but all one can do about this post is laugh... absolutely no facts straight in there.
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Mercy Shannow are you getting a kick back for promoting their oil???
Nice work...no.
Last guy who accused me of getting kickbacks was 25 years ago.
Was an intellectually lazy pseudo engineer, who had serious difficulty grasping the simplest of concepts where they didn't fit his intuitive programme.
The accusation was his way of protecting and justifying his failed understanding by projecting an air of deceit over the opposing side of the argument...at that point he didn't have to think, as I clearly had something to gain.
He retired with the industry thinking him a fool.
You can google "Honda" "Gear Pitting" "HTHS" ... or get your rat mate to google it if it's too hard.
Edit...what's your reason for spouting tripe ???
Mercy Shannow are you getting a kick back for promoting their oil???
Nice work...no.
Last guy who accused me of getting kickbacks was 25 years ago.
Was an intellectually lazy pseudo engineer, who had serious difficulty grasping the simplest of concepts where they didn't fit his intuitive programme.
The accusation was his way of protecting and justifying his failed understanding by projecting an air of deceit over the opposing side of the argument...at that point he didn't have to think, as I clearly had something to gain.
He retired with the industry thinking him a fool.
You can google "Honda" "Gear Pitting" "HTHS" ... or get your rat mate to google it if it's too hard.
Edit...what's your reason for spouting tripe ???
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Nice work...no.
Well you should receive something for promoting a photo that clearly shows a corner of a
gear chewed away by interference with another gear which in no way supports their oil
marketing claim... I don't think you have ever witnessed a real motorcycle tranny in person...
Nice work...no.
Well you should receive something for promoting a photo that clearly shows a corner of a
gear chewed away by interference with another gear which in no way supports their oil
marketing claim... I don't think you have ever witnessed a real motorcycle tranny in person...
Originally Posted By: Atesz792
Sorry man, but all one can do about this post is laugh... absolutely no facts straight in there.
No problem... 15 cSt is 15 cSt but what we enjoy about the uniformity synthetics over the
varying mineral is most clear when you expose the same grade to different temps...
Sorry man, but all one can do about this post is laugh... absolutely no facts straight in there.
No problem... 15 cSt is 15 cSt but what we enjoy about the uniformity synthetics over the
varying mineral is most clear when you expose the same grade to different temps...
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Atesz792
Sorry man, but all one can do about this post is laugh... absolutely no facts straight in there.
No problem... 15 cSt is 15 cSt but what we enjoy about the uniformity synthetics over the
varying mineral is most clear when you expose the same grade to different temps...
Your drivel that we were all laughing at was your statement of the difference between 15cst at 100C and 15cst at 100C...
BTW, what['s your kickback from Castrol and mobil , you on their payroll or something ?
Originally Posted By: Atesz792
Sorry man, but all one can do about this post is laugh... absolutely no facts straight in there.
No problem... 15 cSt is 15 cSt but what we enjoy about the uniformity synthetics over the
varying mineral is most clear when you expose the same grade to different temps...
Your drivel that we were all laughing at was your statement of the difference between 15cst at 100C and 15cst at 100C...
BTW, what['s your kickback from Castrol and mobil , you on their payroll or something ?
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Atesz792
Sorry man, but all one can do about this post is laugh... absolutely no facts straight in there.
No problem... 15 cSt is 15 cSt but what we enjoy about the uniformity synthetics over the
varying mineral is most clear when you expose the same grade to different temps...
That top picture is about as bad as the old Lucas additive displays with the spinning gears they used to put up at parts store counters to "prove" how good it worked.
Originally Posted By: Atesz792
Sorry man, but all one can do about this post is laugh... absolutely no facts straight in there.
No problem... 15 cSt is 15 cSt but what we enjoy about the uniformity synthetics over the
varying mineral is most clear when you expose the same grade to different temps...
That top picture is about as bad as the old Lucas additive displays with the spinning gears they used to put up at parts store counters to "prove" how good it worked.
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Nice work...no.
Well you should receive something for promoting a photo that clearly shows a corner of a
gear chewed away by interference with another gear which in no way supports their oil
marketing claim... I don't think you have ever witnessed a real motorcycle tranny in person...
To be honest neither have you. Your a hang around who has heard some drivel around the shop while you sweep up and for whatever reason you post it here
Your a troll in the absolute worst meaning of the word.
Your a power ranger. And the whole reason I've got a whip on my bars.
Sadly you aren't local.
I see lots of phony's but you are the king.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Nice work...no.
Well you should receive something for promoting a photo that clearly shows a corner of a
gear chewed away by interference with another gear which in no way supports their oil
marketing claim... I don't think you have ever witnessed a real motorcycle tranny in person...
To be honest neither have you. Your a hang around who has heard some drivel around the shop while you sweep up and for whatever reason you post it here
Your a troll in the absolute worst meaning of the word.
Your a power ranger. And the whole reason I've got a whip on my bars.
Sadly you aren't local.
I see lots of phony's but you are the king.
Yep, I've never pulled a motorcycle tranny apart...have been asked to look at a couple in pieces.
I HAVE witnessed pitch line pitting many many times, and it's NOT interference with another gear due to a bent shift fork ala BSS' assertion
I'd be interested in BSS' theory as to how those bits actually ran into each other...and so far along the pitch line.
Have at it BSS ...
I HAVE witnessed pitch line pitting many many times, and it's NOT interference with another gear due to a bent shift fork ala BSS' assertion
I'd be interested in BSS' theory as to how those bits actually ran into each other...and so far along the pitch line.
Have at it BSS ...
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