Oil viscosity numbers, and does "Winter" actually matter?

Standards, Systems, etc. and their history ... not a simple or quick thing to resolve and/or devise.

Having said that, one of the better suggestions I've first read about on bitog was switching to xW-HTHS designation. Not sure if @Shannow invented it or what but I first saw it in one of his posts. It makes more sense than the current designation.
 
^^^ For the most part, the higher the KV100 the higher the HTHS, except in some rare cases. I never use anything with less than 3.0 cP HTHS viscosity.
 
simply the # before the W is the oils viscosity @ 40C-104 F + that oil must be within the centistoke spec for whatever # is given. oils are said to vary by the type of base oils used as they heat or cool. real synthetics thicken LESS in the cold + thin LESS in the heat!!
 
simply the # before the W is the oils viscosity @ 40C-104 F + that oil must be within the centistoke spec for whatever # is given. oils are said to vary by the type of base oils used as they heat or cool. real synthetics thicken LESS in the cold + thin LESS in the heat!!
What? No it isn't. The number before the W is the WINTER rating, that's what the W stands for, WINTER. It corresponds to two tests performed at temperatures well below 0C, as shown in J300, which has been shared on here like a million times.

And no, oils based on PAO, which use less VII polymers, will have a LOWER VI, typically, than a Group III oil using lighter bases and more VII. That is, the latter oil, will thicken less and thin less in the heat (the range between 40C and 100C is more narrow). At extreme cold temperatures is where a PAO-based lube will shine, but that's not captured in VI.
 
I’ve gone from 40W-70 to the super thin 25W-70. I’m waiting for the engine to explode!
 
I've been using conventional 10w40 year around for the past 44 years and my engines outlast the rest of the car. About the coldest we get most winters is maybe negative single digits F but I had 10w40 in my car when temps hit -28F around Christmas of 1990. 5w oils weren't that popular until the '80's and 0w has just become popular in more recent years. If someone wants to run 0w8 that's fine with me it's their car to do with as they please. Personally I don't want something that's going to run like water when the engine gets hot in stop and go traffic.
Are you saying that your 2016 Nissan Versa smashes 50MPG with 10W40 in the sump?

2016 Versa 50MPG.jpg
 
The chart I attached to this post is off a Mobil 1 Extended Performance oil specification page. Im attaching this just so it's easier for people to understand what I'm about to say.

Look at the 2 cSt viscosity rows. 0w-20 at 40 degree Celsius is at 44.9, and at 100 degrees Celsius it's at 8.6.

Now let's look at 10w30. 10w30 at 40 degrees Celsius is at 63.7, and at 100 degrees Celsius it's at 10.2.

The there isn't too huge of a difference between 0w20 and 10w30 when both oils are at 100 degrees Celsius. (100 degrees Celsius is 212 degrees Fahrenheit).

There is a much bigger difference with the different W ratings than the operating temp ratings.

The lower the cSt number your oil is at when it's 40 degree Celsius, the better. For example, if your engine takes 10w30, you can just use 5w30 or 0w30 no issues at all, because 10w30 at operating temp is only 10.2. You don't need 63.7 cSt when the oil is at ambient temp. You can safely go down to 0w.

Why do people think they need 10w30 oil with 60+ cSt rating when the engine is cold, but then the same engine needs a 10 cSt rating when the engine is upto operating temp?

Many car manufacturers are recommending 0w oils at all ambient temps nowadays. And no they are not trying to "scam" you or make your engine wear out faster. 0w is good even in hot summer days, and it's also better in colder climates.

There is no reason to use an oil with 60+ cSt when your engine only needs 8-10 cSt in operating temp. You theoretically need 10cSt when the oil is cold and hot. No need for 10w.

Now if you live in places with an ambient temp of 100C or greater (which 99% of the world does not live in places with an ambient temp greater than 40C), then the 0w can thin out too much, so that's why manufacturers generally recommend thicker W rated oils in hotter climates like the middle east.

Ideally, if we had an oil that can behave like 10cSt when the oil is cold (at an ambient temp of 40C) and when it's hot (at an operating temp of 100C) it would literally be the best oil money can buy. But that's just not possible because it's just isn't possible to do that. Maybe one day in the future that will be possible. Oil gets thinner with heat. It's just how it is and we can't change that.

So the "W" matters, but for most of us, 0w and 5w is more than good enough, and 10w is just unnecessary, and it will just cost you more in fuel. And yes, oil viscosities do change your mpg.

Also, I've never heard of anyone that used 0w oil in 100F summer days and experienced any engine problems. Millions and millions of cars worldwide use 0w oils nowadays, and many of them are lasting 300k miles or more no problem at all, as long as they change the oil at a drain interval that makes sense. Following proper oil drain intervals are way way more important than thinking about "should I use thin oil or thick oil."

I use 0w20 in my 3.5 Ecoboost. Yes you heard that right. It's not a typo. I use 0w20 in my 3.5 Ecoboost engine, which normally is supposed to run 5w30 according to Ford. I switched from using 5w20, 5w30 and 10w30 to 0w20. I've been using 0w20 for almost 20k miles now, because I do believe that 0w oils are objectively better in cold starts (in all ambient temps). I believe that there is no need to use anything with a thicker W rating, because of the objective reasoning I stared above. My car has 100k miles, and my cam phasers are still the original, timing chain is original, and there is no rattle or any of the common problems many Ecoboost users have had over the years. My car runs perfect, and I plan to use 0w20. And I live in South Carolina. It's really hot here in the summer (easily 100F in the summer), and 0w has been great in my engine.


Just my two cents.





And now I just chill out with a nice big bag of 🍿 and just wait until mobs of die hard bitogers that literally anxiously spend 12 hours a day on bitog "accurately researching" about thick vs thin to literally annihilate and cuss me out through the screen.

🍿
 

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Are you saying that your 2016 Nissan Versa smashes 50MPG with 10W40 in the sump?

View attachment 97042
Yes. Since I bought the car in Feb. 2019 my mileage has never dropped below 40.9 MPG and that was when it was at a body shop and garage having work done after an accident in Jan 2022. I suspect other drivers and possibly excessive idling contributed to the lower mileage. Prior to that my lowest mileage was the first tank of gas I ran through it during cold/wet weather coming in at 42.3 MPG.. A lot of my driving is on secondary roads with high deer population where I often set the c/c at 40-45 MPH and I do maybe 10-15% small town driving. I suspect with my driving style if I drove around 55 MPH most of the time I'd probably average around 45 MPG.
 
Mr Lemonade left the building a long time ago.
Yes he did.

And the time that the engine spends in warmup is small compared to operating at temperature. Besides, considering that gasoline varies in energy density up to 4% even at the same gas station it’s very difficult to make any sort of a statistically valid comparison between oils outside of a laboratory.
 
The chart I attached to this post is off a Mobil 1 Extended Performance oil specification page. Im attaching this just so it's easier for people to understand what I'm about to say.

Look at the 2 cSt viscosity rows. 0w-20 at 40 degree Celsius is at 44.9, and at 100 degrees Celsius it's at 8.6.

Now let's look at 10w30. 10w30 at 40 degrees Celsius is at 63.7, and at 100 degrees Celsius it's at 10.2.

The there isn't too huge of a difference between 0w20 and 10w30 when both oils are at 100 degrees Celsius. (100 degrees Celsius is 212 degrees Fahrenheit).

There is a much bigger difference with the different W ratings than the operating temp ratings.

The lower the cSt number your oil is at when it's 40 degree Celsius, the better. For example, if your engine takes 10w30, you can just use 5w30 or 0w30 no issues at all, because 10w30 at operating temp is only 10.2. You don't need 63.7 cSt when the oil is at ambient temp. You can safely go down to 0w.

Why do people think they need 10w30 oil with 60+ cSt rating when the engine is cold, but then the same engine needs a 10 cSt rating when the engine is upto operating temp?

Many car manufacturers are recommending 0w oils at all ambient temps nowadays. And no they are not trying to "scam" you or make your engine wear out faster. 0w is good even in hot summer days, and it's also better in colder climates.

There is no reason to use an oil with 60+ cSt when your engine only needs 8-10 cSt in operating temp. You theoretically need 10cSt when the oil is cold and hot. No need for 10w.

Now if you live in places with an ambient temp of 100C or greater (which 99% of the world does not live in places with an ambient temp greater than 40C), then the 0w can thin out too much, so that's why manufacturers generally recommend thicker W rated oils in hotter climates like the middle east.

Ideally, if we had an oil that can behave like 10cSt when the oil is cold (at an ambient temp of 40C) and when it's hot (at an operating temp of 100C) it would literally be the best oil money can buy. But that's just not possible because it's just isn't possible to do that. Maybe one day in the future that will be possible. Oil gets thinner with heat. It's just how it is and we can't change that.

So the "W" matters, but for most of us, 0w and 5w is more than good enough, and 10w is just unnecessary, and it will just cost you more in fuel. And yes, oil viscosities do change your mpg.

Also, I've never heard of anyone that used 0w oil in 100F summer days and experienced any engine problems. Millions and millions of cars worldwide use 0w oils nowadays, and many of them are lasting 300k miles or more no problem at all, as long as they change the oil at a drain interval that makes sense. Following proper oil drain intervals are way way more important than thinking about "should I use thin oil or thick oil."

I use 0w20 in my 3.5 Ecoboost. Yes you heard that right. It's not a typo. I use 0w20 in my 3.5 Ecoboost engine, which normally is supposed to run 5w30 according to Ford. I switched from using 5w20, 5w30 and 10w30 to 0w20. I've been using 0w20 for almost 20k miles now, because I do believe that 0w oils are objectively better in cold starts (in all ambient temps). I believe that there is no need to use anything with a thicker W rating, because of the objective reasoning I stared above. My car has 100k miles, and my cam phasers are still the original, timing chain is original, and there is no rattle or any of the common problems many Ecoboost users have had over the years. My car runs perfect, and I plan to use 0w20. And I live in South Carolina. It's really hot here in the summer (easily 100F in the summer), and 0w has been great in my engine.


Just my two cents.





And now I just chill out with a nice big bag of 🍿 and just wait until mobs of die hard bitogers that literally anxiously spend 12 hours a day on bitog "accurately researching" about thick vs thin to literally annihilate and cuss me out through the screen.

🍿
What you are describing is Viscosity Index. That's the difference between the 40C and 100C figures. Now, a 0w-xx does not always have a lower viscosity index than a 5w-xx or 10w-xx, it just depends on the VI of the finished product. The VI is not connected to the Winter rating, it just happens that, most of the time, oils with the 0w-xx Winter rating have higher VI's than those with narrower spreads. This is particularly true for a few of the uber high VI 0w-20's from the Japanese OEM's, like TGMO 0w-20. This is achieved by using a very light base oil and a significant amount of VII (Viscosity Index Improvers; the polymers that we add to oil to manipulate an oils viscometrics, so they expand to prevent the oil from thinning too much as the the oil is heated, and contract when it cools, reducing the thickening).

*I won't cite the current PDS data for M1 EP, since we are still waiting to hear back on the VI being accurate for M1 EP 0w-20.

An example, here we have Ravenol DFE 0w-20, which is a PAO-based lube with a VI of 164:
Screen Shot 2022-04-20 at 1.34.03 PM.jpg


Here is Shell Helix Ultra 5w-20, which is the same visc at 40C and actually a touch heavier at 100C. Notice it has a higher VI.
Screen Shot 2021-08-11 at 1.56.26 AM.jpg


Here is Valvoline Extended Protection 5w-20, which is a bit lighter than both of the above at 100C, and lighter than both at 40C. Note it has almost the same VI as the 0w-20.
Screen Shot 2022-04-20 at 1.45.22 PM.jpg


Pennzoil Platinum 5w-20 also has a higher VI (yes, this is the same oil as the Helix product):
Screen Shot 2022-04-20 at 1.48.52 PM.jpg
 
%18.6 difference (increase) between 8.6 and 10.2 cSt (0W-20 vs. 10W-30) that you have posted (see below).
that's a huge difference!
is it needed or required? That's another story!

would you reject an %18.6 pay raise?

I don't know why I love 10W-30s but I do. lol


"The there isn't too huge of a difference between 0w20 and 10w30 when both oils are at 100 degrees Celsius. (100 degrees Celsius is 212 degrees Fahrenheit)."
 
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%18.6 difference (increase) between 8.6 and 10.2 cSt (0W-20 vs. 10W-30) that you have posted (see below).
that's a huge difference!
would you reject an %18.6 pay raise?

I don't know why I love 10W-30s but I do. lol


"The there isn't too huge of a difference between 0w20 and 10w30 when both oils are at 100 degrees Celsius. (100 degrees Celsius is 212 degrees Fahrenheit)."
You're missing the point.

I can't say I would reject a 18% pay raise, but... I don't know, that's not a huge difference in the grand scheme of oil viscosities IMO.

I was mainly talking about the different W's, and how 0w is better than other W's.
 
I don't think I missed any points. You just repeated and confirmed your "point".

btw, besides the point but I know why I love 10W-30s. They are very cute and have low Noack! Like some of the girls I dated in college :)

You're missing the point.

I can't say I would reject a 18% pay raise, but... I don't know, that's not a huge difference in the grand scheme of oil viscosities IMO.

I was mainly talking about the different W's, and how 0w is better than other W's.
 
btw, I was editing my post as you were quoting me.

I must have added the following after your post:
"is it needed or required? That's another story!"
 
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