More cold start noise at 10F with 5w compared to 0w

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Hello all, on my 2014 Honda j35 v6 engine i recently put in 5w30 VRP. I would have preferred to run 0W30 but thats not an option with VRP.

Originally I always assumed 0W was better for cold starts no matter the temp but after receiving good knowledge and advice from this forum, it seems to state that SAE J300 is what matters which details the crankability and pumpability

Furthermore a 5W and 0W would technically have very similar crankability and pumpability at temps such as 10F and etc. Apparently this association remains the same up until super cold temps such as -20F where someone would probably want to switch to a 0W as it won't hurt

I wanted to ask however, lately the temp has dropped to 10F on my morning cold starts and lately ive been getting a cold start brief slap/squeal noise due to the cold temp. I have troubles explaining exactly what it is but i believe it could fall under the category of cold start noise. It just happens when I first crank and the engine fires up, after 1 second the engine sounds normal. It's not a grind or anything, just sounds like a belt noise and or a slap type of noise. I understand this isn't helpful but I won't be able to post a video for a bit and I truly think I have heard similar noises on other cars in the cold. Posting a video would probably just blame it on my vehicle but i am certain i have heard these noises on other vehicles

What I wanted to ask, is this a oil related noise presumed? or is it a noise due to belt contraction or metal type of contraction due to the the cold. I feel like I have heard it less on vehicles when they are running 0W but that shouldnt really matter at this temp unless I am wrong. I can't use my car as an example but i have a memory that when I was running 0W last month it never really made these noises.


anyone have a similar finding? ty
 
could be your oil filter lacking a anti-drain back feature, or leaking back, try another brand of oil filter next oil change. a 0wt oil will also pump faster, per a ccs test, and a mrv test, lower is better per viscosity temps . Some 5w oils seem to pump faster than other 5w oils, check the published specs (if any) and the pour point comparison. You might have your mechanic or you check or tighten the belts on your car also. & fluid level on the power steering pump unit
 
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If you want 0w30, just use a different brand of oil :sneaky:

M1 AFE is good stuff and sold at Walmart for a fair price

Like others said, power steering noise is possible, and Honda is picky about what kind of fluid they can use (doesn't have to be from the dealer, but it does have to say Honda on the bottle). Check the fluid level on the PS, and if you're low, fill it with something specifically made for Honda. DO NOT use ATF in a Honda power steering system!

Turn the wheels after you first start it up and see if the noise gets louder :unsure:
 
I don’t think you’re having a problem. I just started a BMW S54 engine at 7 F using BMW TPT 10W-60.
 
I messed up this fall and under estimated winter's severity and put in 10w-30 in my old truck's engine this fall. Cranks very slowly and oil pressure takes a few more seconds to build. Luckily I do not drive much in winter but I will do differently next fall. Luckily no abnormal noise is heard.
 
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Nearly impossible to diagnose online. I will say living where it’s way below zero many times, noises happen. It was -9F yesterday and my vehicles made some strange noises at start up. It’s -12F now and I sure I’ll hear more today. Around here we warm up our vehicles, if you try driving off before then the noises are God awful.
 
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Does it still have a hydraulic power steering pump? Mine have squawked before on super cold starts.
I used to have that issue when using stock GM power steering fluid in my 97 Buick Park Ave.

A power steering specialist technician at Performance Steering Components (PSC) Motor Sports recommended that I flush and replace my power steering fluid with Swepco power steering fluid because (he said) it's the best. I told him that Swepco is not locally available in my town and I needed it that day.

So he then told me that Lucas power steering fluid is the next best. Lucas PSF is locally available so my cousin flushed and replaced my PSF with Lucas PSF.

Lucas PSF eliminated the PS squeal at startup even on cold days. On coldest days it would still moan a little briefly, but no sqeal. The moan was only for a moment. It was a huge improvement. It's has also been easier to turn the steering wheel in parking lots since then.

I highly recommend Lucas PSF. Swepco would probably be even better if you have it in your local area.

Note: The events I described happened several years back when my car was parked outdoors and I was still able to drive. For the last several years my car is stored in a heated garage and I'm no longer able to drive. Others use my car to drive me around as needed. So my story is a bit dated, but I think it's still applicable to power steering (at least for American cars). Parking in a heated garage has cured all my automotive winter ills.

P.S. - I did that switch to Lucas PSF with my 99 Jeep Cherokee and my 97 Buick Park Ave and it helped both of them. At that time they were both stored/parked outdoors. Lucas (and Swepco) is compatible with both those vehicles. However, I don't if Lucas or Swepco is compatible with your Honda.
 
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Yep had some strange noises this morning on the way to breakfast.

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Ty all I wanted to add my vehicle is electric steering sorry I didn’t add that but regardless it’s still good Info for others that may pass thru this thread later. Thanks for the contributions

Im not worried about it, today was 17f for the cold start and it sounded completed normal.

I think it’s just cold noise from the cold contracted metal, or the cold belt. I won’t be able to change to 0w this winter and it def shouldn’t be necessary at the temps I am in but I guess doesn’t hurt next year.

Regardless the pump ability of 5w and 0w should be very similar at this temp range (10f at the coldest and usually around 20f)

So unless I’m mistaken it shouldn’t be an oil issue
 
Look, you changed several variables here:

Older Car
Colder temps
Different oil

No way to definitively say it’s the oil on your older car that could, potentially, have dozens of causes, from belts and tensioners to power steering and air conditioning compressor.

I don’t think the oil changed the noise.
 
Started my J35 at -5 degrees today. My power steering pump groans at low temps, and there's certainly more noise from under the hood upon start-up in general at these temperatures.

I'm running 5W-30 Mobil 1 EP High Mileage right now, and I don't think the oil is the issue, I think it's that all of the pulleys/accessories need to warm up too (the oil coating inside of the bearings in the pulleys/idler for example) and also that every single piece of metal in or attached to the engine is at it's smallest size due to thermal contraction, leaving more space between all moving parts than usual, allowing more vibration/noise. That's my theory anyway.
 
Regardless the pump ability of 5w and 0w should be very similar at this temp range (10f at the coldest and usually around 20f)
VRP 5W-30 is fairly thick, with a high KV40 and a low viscosity index. Here's a chart comparing its kinematic viscosity with a higher-VI 0W-20 (Pennzoil Platinum). The VRP has around twice the viscosity. The difference is equivalent to 9°C / 16°F, which is pretty significant.

Technically, KV is not the most relevant viscosity metric at these temperatures. A CCS measurement at the actual temperature of the oil would be more relevant, but the point is that there could be a fairly large difference, especially since the VRP is thick at low temperatures for a 5W-30.

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VRP 5W-30 is fairly thick, with a high KV40 and a low viscosity index. Here's a chart comparing its kinematic viscosity with a higher-VI 0W-20 (Pennzoil Platinum). The VRP has around twice the viscosity. The difference is equivalent to 9°C / 16°F, which is pretty significant.

Technically, KV is not the most relevant viscosity metric at these temperatures. A CCS measurement at the actual temperature of the oil would be more relevant, but the point is that there could be a fairly large difference, especially since the VRP is thick at low temperatures for a 5W-30.

View attachment 260064
Visc calcs aren't accurate below 0C unfortunately.

But you are right, what's important is CCS and MRV and you can extrapolate those backwards using the "doubling" (or "halving") rule, which is that for each 5C higher the viscosity roughly halves. So if you had an oil with a CCS of 5,000cP at -35C it would be ~2,500cP at -30C. This works going the other way too until you run into the wax crystal cliff with MRV.
 
Visc calcs aren't accurate below 0C unfortunately.
I believe that the KV calculations are accurate to much lower temperatures. I've seen some KV measurements down to -25°C, and they almost exactly matched the theoretical curve.

I just don't think that KV is relevant to an engine at low temperature, since the oil will always be in a shear-thinned state when it's very cold. The CCS test is better because it shears the oil enough to better represent conditions in an engine.

But you are right, what's important is CCS and MRV and you can extrapolate those backwards using the "doubling" (or "halving") rule, which is that for each 5C higher the viscosity roughly halves.
The factor of 2 is a good rule of thumb, but it can vary quite a bit from one oil to another, and that factor will change as the oil gets warmer and doesn't shear thin as much. So for temperatures closer to 0°C, CCS and KV estimates are both going to be imperfect estimates of the viscosity.
 
I believe that the KV calculations are accurate to much lower temperatures. I've seen some KV measurements down to -25°C, and they almost exactly matched the theoretical curve.
I've seen ones that are way off, but it's difficult to get the data because most oils don't have KV figures at anything other than 100C and 40C. Mobil's PDS sheets for their SpectraSyn PAO base oils have KV's at various temperatures, but a fully formulated oil isn't going to behave like pure PAO, which has no wax, so no crystals to form (which is what drives up the viscosity and why we use PPD's to try and control that behaviour).

Found this post of mine trying to find something:

I compared the visc calc results to his actual KV results in the post. His page has been updated, there are more results now, here's the first one:
15W-40:
TempReal KVCalculated KV
80C23.00623.25
70C31.35031.79
60C44.58545.15
50C66.46467.09
40C105.10105.1
30C178.01175.3
20C326.87315.06
10C658.60619.12
0C1489.401354.37
You can see how real KV and calculated KV start to diverge as we get closer to 0C.
I just don't think that KV is relevant to an engine at low temperature, since the oil will always be in a shear-thinned state when it's very cold. The CCS test is better because it shears the oil enough to better represent conditions in an engine.
Yes, CCS is a much more relevant metric.
The factor of 2 is a good rule of thumb, but it can vary quite a bit from one oil to another, and that factor will change as the oil gets warmer and doesn't shear thin as much. So for temperatures closer to 0°C, CCS and KV estimates are both going to be imperfect estimates of the viscosity.

Yes, the halving rule starts to crap the bed as you get up closer to 0C too, lol.
 
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