AND this:
Oil is Oil
- Thread starter Al
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The much maligned YouTube oil tests out there do show that there are, at the very least, differences in various oils. Many here have a visceral hatred of the videos and get irrationally hostile about them. The videos, though, DO seem to show that various oils have some discernibly different properties. Where the dubiousness comes in is when drawing conclusions about whether any oil is “better” than another based on any single string of error-prone testing.
That being said, perfect lab conditions are not necessary to ascertain reality. Imperfect sampling is still capable of constraining reality, just with wider error bars. As a geoscientist I can tell you that measurements within the natural sciences are chock full of error, and yet we still march forward. Its just a bit more challenging to work with dirty data.
I’m in the middle of compiling a lot of this data. In looking at it, a basic claim like “some oils have different properties than others” is not unreasonable. I’m noticing some loose correlations across the data.
For example, Amsoil does seem to have less evaporative loss than other brands when tested on the same day. This is likely to be real, and it fits with the general consensus that Amsoil’s Noak is indeed better than most other oils. Another example: higher tier offerings within a single vendor’s line do seem to fairly consistently produce “better” results in cold flow, evap loss, and wear testing. Again, this indicates to me that there is at least some real and valid information showing through on the tests.
My opinion is that, yes, there are differences. I do think that within a given vendor’s lineup, there probably would be measurably different performance between the bottom tier and top tier offerings that might manifest over the lifetime of a vehicle, all other factors being equal. However, I also think that there are an incredible amount of variables at play, and they are likely such small differences that they would easily be obfuscated by all the other confounding variables over the life of a car. Care intervals likely matter far more, for example.
When it comes to boutique oils, I am convinced they do perform better than off-the-shelf oils - especially in the ring areas.
That being said, perfect lab conditions are not necessary to ascertain reality. Imperfect sampling is still capable of constraining reality, just with wider error bars. As a geoscientist I can tell you that measurements within the natural sciences are chock full of error, and yet we still march forward. Its just a bit more challenging to work with dirty data.
I’m in the middle of compiling a lot of this data. In looking at it, a basic claim like “some oils have different properties than others” is not unreasonable. I’m noticing some loose correlations across the data.
For example, Amsoil does seem to have less evaporative loss than other brands when tested on the same day. This is likely to be real, and it fits with the general consensus that Amsoil’s Noak is indeed better than most other oils. Another example: higher tier offerings within a single vendor’s line do seem to fairly consistently produce “better” results in cold flow, evap loss, and wear testing. Again, this indicates to me that there is at least some real and valid information showing through on the tests.
My opinion is that, yes, there are differences. I do think that within a given vendor’s lineup, there probably would be measurably different performance between the bottom tier and top tier offerings that might manifest over the lifetime of a vehicle, all other factors being equal. However, I also think that there are an incredible amount of variables at play, and they are likely such small differences that they would easily be obfuscated by all the other confounding variables over the life of a car. Care intervals likely matter far more, for example.
When it comes to boutique oils, I am convinced they do perform better than off-the-shelf oils - especially in the ring areas.
What otherwise undefined differences do those YouTube videos show?
I totally agree that the ultimate problem is unwarranted conclusions being drawn from those "tests". But I also don't think they are giving relevant results that would yield statically significant comparisons. They are one-time, uncontrolled county fair demonstrations that are fun to watch perhaps but neither exploring some previously undiscovered oil property nor do they yield results that can be "ranked" as they all attempt to do.
Solidarity amongst geologists brother
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Blackstone has stated that they have looked at their data and see no statistical differences between oils w/r wear metals.
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I wonder how statistically deep they went. I bet the dataset is very messy and lacks the normalization required to really dig in. It’s likely very hard to accurately slice by the necessary variables to truly answer this question like car mileage, interval, age, make, model, date of test, oil brand, oil model, other metadata, etc. if the dataset is unclean.
Oh to have this dataset in Spotfire…
Just got my electricity back on after a storm. Whew!
Motor oil must be BAD since they keep trying to make it better and not succeeding. I think I have personally been through nine different iterations or "improvements" of the S-category lubricants since I've been pouring the stuff into engines. In the 90's they even had to pull in the Japanese car makers and Chrysler into a committee a while back to help form minimum, specification and test criteria!
Then along come some guy who wants to put an old oil formulation into their hopped-up buggy because "the new stuff is no good!"
Sorta make the head spin.
___________________________________________________
postamble
There a have been a couple real dogs I grabbed off the shelf over the years, and I don't like the lack of polar head "cling" of severe hydro-processed minerals in general use PCMO, but I will emphatically state that Gasoline quality, Oil Filter size (delta p) and Air filters appear to have have been my enemy - the first two being way up the list. Almost forgot, poor mixture control with easily fouled lamda sensing is in the mixup too. A challenging situation for sure.
Motor oil must be BAD since they keep trying to make it better and not succeeding. I think I have personally been through nine different iterations or "improvements" of the S-category lubricants since I've been pouring the stuff into engines. In the 90's they even had to pull in the Japanese car makers and Chrysler into a committee a while back to help form minimum, specification and test criteria!
Then along come some guy who wants to put an old oil formulation into their hopped-up buggy because "the new stuff is no good!"
Sorta make the head spin.
___________________________________________________
postamble
There a have been a couple real dogs I grabbed off the shelf over the years, and I don't like the lack of polar head "cling" of severe hydro-processed minerals in general use PCMO, but I will emphatically state that Gasoline quality, Oil Filter size (delta p) and Air filters appear to have have been my enemy - the first two being way up the list. Almost forgot, poor mixture control with easily fouled lamda sensing is in the mixup too. A challenging situation for sure.
This is where I am on this. He has data showing differences...what oil properties are creating those differences (regardless of whether these meet criterion for ICE oil testing)? If he did these tests 100 times each I'd wager the results would be the same...some flow faster consistently by gravity when cold. Some 'boil off" more than others when heated etc. Why? What does that mean? What variables are an issue? It means something (I don't know what...it's a good question and may correltate to real ASTM oil test results...or not) and discounting those differences to being equivalent to taste etc. that folks often say here seems counter to being an inquisitive scientist and a bit of a cop out. I've seen some strange correlations that proved valuable in geological data sets for mineral exploration...
The evidence seems to back up this statement, M! 0w40 gives the best bang for the buck.
What evidence is that?
Triple_Se7en
$50 Site Donor 2024
Agree! The formula changed with SP intro.
I still used the SP the past three OCIs. Just blended some 10w30 EP Triple Action with it.
I give it Four **** Stars still. The old formula had a Cult-like following with it. That was a special brew and it drew the likes of Overkill and a few others here respectfully.
I still used the SP the past three OCIs. Just blended some 10w30 EP Triple Action with it.
I give it Four **** Stars still. The old formula had a Cult-like following with it. That was a special brew and it drew the likes of Overkill and a few others here respectfully.
He can hear it. You wouldn’t understand.
My generator also loved the 5W40 ACEA Valvoline. It got a workout the past couple days. Ran smooth and quiet loaded and hot. Stale fuel also.
Wear? It will rust apart before that is an issue
Wear? It will rust apart before that is an issue
JTK
$100 Site Donor 2025
Maybe your generator needs an oil based rust treatment then.
Also see dip stick color post as well as detailed exam of oil filter post for ASTM-level testing.
Foxtrot mentioned how it is unlikely you'll see a deviation in your engine's B10 rating regardless of oil. I think that is true under OEM drain intervals. Go further than that, things change.
So what are the differences then?
Oils like HPL, Amsoil, Mobil 1 EP are heavily fortified with more anti oxidations, better viscosity modifiers and base oils that can extend drain intervals while keeping your engine cleaner.
I think you would absolutely see a difference between Kirkland 5w30 and HPL 5w30 over 20k mile drain intervals.
So what are the differences then?
Oils like HPL, Amsoil, Mobil 1 EP are heavily fortified with more anti oxidations, better viscosity modifiers and base oils that can extend drain intervals while keeping your engine cleaner.
I think you would absolutely see a difference between Kirkland 5w30 and HPL 5w30 over 20k mile drain intervals.
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