Noria Publications Implications to Me on Thin Oils

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I purchased a publication from the Noria Corporation which specializes in lubrication consulting and educational work. The publication is authored by Jim Fitch who is reportedly a very reputable engineer who has even been used by major oil companies as an expert witness on lubrication issues. The title of the book is "How to Select a Motor Oil and Filter For Your Car or Truck.

Having read this book I am left with the impression that while my warranty requires that I use 0w20 synthetic oil I would probably have better protection for the engine if I used 5w30 synthetic in my 2013 Mazda 3. To me, the author was very careful to put in statements advising the readers to follow the manufacturers recommendations for his/her particular vehicle but throughout the publication I got the distinct impression that todays thin oils recommended by the manufacturers are more for CAFE than anything else. I was also left with the understanding that the 0w20 oil robably offers adequate protection for at least 100,000 miles providing my engine's thermostat doesn't stick or I don't start using it for some sort of severe service like hauling a trailer in the mountains.

Of course, I can't quote the entire publication but here are a few inferences that were provided: In one part, the book notes that 5W-20 viscosity compared to a thicker oils can translate to fuel savings ranging as high as 5 per cent, depending on additives and driving conditions. In that light, the publication added the following: "However, beware that such a viscosity selection may retard engine life, (see Chapter 7 which discusses the issue in more detail)". Also, in another part of the selection process for motor oils it recommends: " For maximum engine life select a back number viscosity of 30 for most late model automobiles". Also, under the publication's heading of "What to Use", it states: "Oils recommended by the auto manufacturers seem to compromise protection from wear under severe conditions to gain fuel economy and catalyst durability. It is important to recognize that to use a product that offers more protection from wear will most likely compromise your warranty." Later it goes on to state: "The best protection against wear is probably a product that is a little thicker (such as SAE 10W30 or 15W40) and has more antiwear additives than the oils that support the warranty." That segment finished by stating: "The best oil for your vehicle depends on your driving habits, the age of your engine and the climate you drive in, but it is not necessarily the type of oil specified in the owners manual or stamped on the dipstick."

As I noted, I don't have enough knowledge to argue the merits of this issue and maybe I don't have enough knowledge to even come to the right conclusion after reading the whole publication. All I can suggest is that anybody really interested might go to the Noira Corporation website and purchase it online.
 
The bolded line in your post is the best. Do you work for Noria or for the company that is selling their pubs online?

Originally Posted By: Spudislander
I purchased a publication from the Noria Corporation which specializes in lubrication consulting and educational work. The publication is authored by Jim Fitch who is reportedly a very reputable engineer who has even been used by major oil companies as an expert witness on lubrication issues. The title of the book is "How to Select a Motor Oil and Filter For Your Car or Truck.

Having read this book I am left with the impression that while my warranty requires that I use 0w20 synthetic oil I would probably have better protection for the engine if I used 5w30 synthetic in my 2013 Mazda 3. To me, the author was very careful to put in statements advising the readers to follow the manufacturers recommendations for his/her particular vehicle but throughout the publication I got the distinct impression that todays thin oils recommended by the manufacturers are more for CAFE than anything else. I was also left with the understanding that the 0w20 oil robably offers adequate protection for at least 100,000 miles providing my engine's thermostat doesn't stick or I don't start using it for some sort of severe service like hauling a trailer in the mountains.

Of course, I can't quote the entire publication but here are a few inferences that were provided: In one part, the book notes that 5W-20 viscosity compared to a thicker oils can translate to fuel savings ranging as high as 5 per cent, depending on additives and driving conditions. In that light, the publication added the following: "However, beware that such a viscosity selection may retard engine life, (see Chapter 7 which discusses the issue in more detail)". Also, in another part of the selection process for motor oils it recommends: " For maximum engine life select a back number viscosity of 30 for most late model automobiles". Also, under the publication's heading of "What to Use", it states: "Oils recommended by the auto manufacturers seem to compromise protection from wear under severe conditions to gain fuel economy and catalyst durability. It is important to recognize that to use a product that offers more protection from wear will most likely compromise your warranty." Later it goes on to state: "The best protection against wear is probably a product that is a little thicker (such as SAE 10W30 or 15W40) and has more antiwear additives than the oils that support the warranty." That segment finished by stating: "The best oil for your vehicle depends on your driving habits, the age of your engine and the climate you drive in, but it is not necessarily the type of oil specified in the owners manual or stamped on the dipstick."

As I noted, I don't have enough knowledge to argue the merits of this issue and maybe I don't have enough knowledge to even come to the right conclusion after reading the whole publication. All I can suggest is that anybody really interested might go to the Noira Corporation website and purchase it online.
 
It's always a tradeoff. For example, 0W-20 will protect better at startup until the oil warms up, especially when compared against a 10W-30 or 15W-40. Oil will flow to the top end much more quickly.

Also, some manufacturers (Honda and Toyota, for example) have been recommending 5W-20 or 0W-20 for over ten years. If SAE20 oils compromised engine life, surely we would have seen class-action lawsuits about it by now.
 
Oh and thank you so much for alerting us to this fee-only, mystical ever-so-secret information only available from Noria, whomever they are.

And "just a little thicker" like 15W-40? Thanks for the tip!
 
Then they will protect worse?

Originally Posted By: NateDN10
It's always a tradeoff. For example, 0W-20 will protect better at startup until the oil warms up, especially when compared against a 10W-30 or 15W-40. Oil will flow to the top end much more quickly.

Also, some manufacturers (Honda and Toyota, for example) have been recommending 5W-20 or 0W-20 for over ten years. If SAE20 oils compromised engine life, surely we would have seen class-action lawsuits about it by now.
 
That's the debate, isn't it? I'd say Mr. Fitch needs to look at some of the Ford 5.0 UOAs, both for the F150 and the Mustang (one of which was tracked). They are all good or great on 5w20.
 
It seems really simplistic. I mean a one size fits all recommendation to use 10-30 or 15-40 in most passenger cars shouldn't need to be a long paper or cost any money to read.

Realistically oil temperature and it's range during operating conditions should be used to determine the appropriate viscosity, I'd be shocked if the paper didn't go into that in depth.
 
I believe it. Manufacturers stand to gain millions through CAFE, and all they really care is that the engine won't grenade until it's out of warranty.
 
So based on this report (that I have to pay to read) authored by a guy that is reportedly a very reputable engineer who has even been used by major oil companies as an expert witness on lubrication issues, am I in trouble? I mean, I have used 0W-20 in my ECHO and 5W-20 in my Sienna for well over 100,000 miles each! And I can tell you I have never used 15W-40 in either one. In fact, I've never used anything with a "40" in the designation at all.

Should I be worried? Am I doomed?
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
So based on this report (that I have to pay to read) authored by a guy that is reportedly a very reputable engineer who has even been used by major oil companies as an expert witness on lubrication issues, am I in trouble? I mean, I have used 0W-20 in my ECHO and 5W-20 in my Sienna for well over 100,000 miles each! And I can tell you I have never used 15W-40 in either one. In fact, I've never used anything with a "40" in the designation at all.

Should I be worried? Am I doomed?


All I noted is what I read. I found Noira online. As far as Jim Fitch is concerned, read for yourself: http://www.noria.com/team/jim-fitch
 
The main reason for my posting was to generate some discussion and hear some opinions. I thought maybe somebody on here may have read the book and had some opinions to express. (It was inexpensive so I bought it through the Noria Corporation website.)

However, I'm not at all surprised that my posting would generate some excitement.

BTW, I'm not advocating purchase of the book. I don't know anything about Noria nor the author other than what I read online.
 
And, over two decades ago, a BP "expert" witness magically turned mineral oil in to "Synthetic" in this biggest consumer scam since the Tobacco wars.

Simple:
On a passenger car
High revs + load and heat (sump over 125C) = +1 grade OR a true tri synthetic ACEA A3,B4 rated oil of the starting (original) grade. "Everyone" once upon a time knew that.

Hard street or track use? Consult and spec a good race formulated oil with low detergency and elevated EP/AW.
 
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Originally Posted By: Spudislander
"Oils recommended by the auto manufacturers seem to compromise protection from wear under severe conditions to gain fuel economy and catalyst durability.


So what?

The second leading cause of cars being taken out of service is no longer passing emission testing. The engine is capable of outlasting the after-treatment system by a long shot no matter what oil is used. If using an oil that sacrifices a little bit of engine life to make the catalytic converter last longer, I say good. The body, paint, suspension, transmission and interior are usually in pretty sorry shape by the time the after-treatment system can no longer be economically repaired.

95% of engine wear occurs when the engine is below operating temperature. In my opinion an oil that has excellent protection at start up but mediocre protection at temp is much better than an oil that has excellent protection at temp but mediocre at start up. If the engine is always running, such as commercial use, well that's why we have all-fleet oils like Rotella. For normal use 5w-20 or 0w-20 are better than great if specified.

Come on, you payed hard earned money for a Noria publication? ...or payed, meaning as in the time you wasted and will never get back while reading it?
 
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Thanks spudislander for the information. An interesting note: The 0w20 is used only in the US & Canada for the 2013/2014 Mazda SkyActiv engines. 5w30 is the recomendation elsewhere as stated in the owners manual for my CX5.
 
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Originally Posted By: NateDN10
Also, some manufacturers (Honda and Toyota, for example) have been recommending 5W-20 or 0W-20 for over ten years. If SAE20 oils compromised engine life, surely we would have seen class-action lawsuits about it by now.


Very good point.
 
In the industrial world, Noria folks are the gods in lubrication. They are recognized as the true experts. I do not know if that is the same for the automotive world.

If you are a tribologist, reliability engineer, maintenance engineer, etc in an industrial plant - you likely know and trust Noria.
 
Many seem to think that manufactures only care about the car until the warranty is up, while this may be partially true.(at least in the manufactures eyes its no longer their problem) I honestly think they would still want the best possible protection for their cars.

If you had a car that grenaded after 100k+ miles/shortly after the warranty would you ever want to go back to that brand? Probably not. Sure its good to sell someone a car once, but its even better if they keep coming back and buying cars every time they need one. repeat business is extremely important in today's economy, as is making a vehicle last as long as possible.
 
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