Noria Publications Implications to Me on Thin Oils

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Originally Posted By: kschachn
How do they stand to gain millions by meeting CAFE standards? I realize they stand to lose millions in lost sales (due to penalties) if they don't, but how do they stand to gain?

If anything I think they are losing money due to CAFE. Or more accurately, the customers are losing money.

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I believe it. Manufacturers stand to gain millions through CAFE, and all they really care is that the engine won't grenade until it's out of warranty.


Auto makers who beat their CAFE target can sell credits to other auto makers. IIRC Toyota made a ton of money a couple years ago doing just that, something on the order of $100 Million.
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
"The best protection against wear is probably a product that is a little thicker (such as SAE 10W30 or 15W40)"

You still think so after that statement? Apart from the blanket recommendation that includes a 40-weight, why chose a 10W or 15W at all? Why not 5W? That right there is suspect.

Originally Posted By: paulswagelock
In the industrial world, Noria folks are the gods in lubrication. They are recognized as the true experts. I do not know if that is the same for the automotive world.

If you are a tribologist, reliability engineer, maintenance engineer, etc in an industrial plant - you likely know and trust Noria.


First off, DO NOT bad mouth Jim or make the mistake of discounting him as some self-assumed expert, as Paul said, Noria has been around for a long time, and Jim has contributed significantly to the tribology and lubrication technology industries and the practical application of lubricants in many industries.

Secondly, this book was written 10 years ago, so while it makes some great points, lubrication technology is advancing and many things have changed since this written. If you were to call or email Jim today and ask him about it, I am sure he would be very much up to speed about what is going on with the new thin oil formulas.
 
From my perspective, I believe the best I can do is adhere to the manufacturer's requirements until warranty expires. After that, I will try to rely on the best information I can find which hopefully originates from a source with real technical/professional credentials, e.g. a member of the Society of Automotive Engineers who specialize in lubrication and oil analysis.
 
It has been stated the use of thin oils (I will assume this to be or potentially lower engine life). Since most anything posted in favor of thin oils is normally met with a myriad of arguments/excuses/rhetoric/yada yada yada (and vice-versa), how much longer will said engines last on oils equal to or greater than 5W-30?

It would seem that engines lasting 100K, 200K, 300K+++ are not good enough to prove that thin oils provide adequate protection (though no such requirement or data seems to be needed to justify longevity for oils equal to or greater than 5W-30). Why the double standard?
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Well that's a big help.

See it to learn what? And it was published in 1981? 1981?? I was just starting to use Mobil 1 5W-20 in 1981, instead of the 10W-40 I had previously been using.

Originally Posted By: Shannow
http://papers.sae.org/811224/

But you have to pay $24 to see it...


Same here. I started using M1 5-20 in 1978 in an engine calling for 10-40. My engine performed very well. I also used 20 wt Valvoline in the late 60s and early 70s. I heard the same "your going to damage your engine with 20wt" argument then. Some things just never change.
 
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"I started using M1 5-20 in 1978 in an engine calling for 10-40. My engine performed very well. I also used 20 wt Valvoline in the late 60s and early 70s. I heard the same "your going to damage your engine with 20wt" argument then. Some things just never change."

Really, I had no idea those thinner oils were used back then. Interesting.
What is also interesting is in our part of the world, without EPA and CAFE, those really thin oils are not routinely used or even easily available.
The oil supplied by Toyota NZ is 10W-40.
 
As I interpret the Noria publication it is not saying that using thin oils e.g. 0w20 will result in the engine not lasting for 100,000 or 200,000 miles or whatever. Rather, I interpret it as saying that in many cases a thicker oil would provide better protection against certain conditions and thereby better assurance of engine longevity.
 
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Originally Posted By: Spudislander
As I interpret the Noria publication it is not saying that using thin oils e.g. 0w20 will result in the engine not lasting for 100,000 or 200,000 miles or whatever. Rather, I interpret it as saying that in many cases a thicker oil would provide better protection against certain conditions and thereby better assurance of engine longevity.


You heretic
wink.gif
 
I agree that is what it says. But that statement is very vague and unsupported. It is of no use really, to me at least. Maybe to you.

Originally Posted By: Spudislander
As I interpret the Noria publication it is not saying that using thin oils e.g. 0w20 will result in the engine not lasting for 100,000 or 200,000 miles or whatever. Rather, I interpret it as saying that in many cases a thicker oil would provide better protection against certain conditions and thereby better assurance of engine longevity.
 
Explain to me how Jim got the exact same text as Blaine Ballentine?

And if things have changed significantly as I agree they have, then why is this company charging people for outdated information?

Originally Posted By: Solarent
First off, DO NOT bad mouth Jim or make the mistake of discounting him as some self-assumed expert, as Paul said, Noria has been around for a long time, and Jim has contributed significantly to the tribology and lubrication technology industries and the practical application of lubricants in many industries.

Secondly, this book was written 10 years ago, so while it makes some great points, lubrication technology is advancing and many things have changed since this written. If you were to call or email Jim today and ask him about it, I am sure he would be very much up to speed about what is going on with the new thin oil formulas.
 
Do you have that technical information, at least sufficient to cause you to deviate from the manufacturer's recommendations? A serious question.

Originally Posted By: Spudislander
From my perspective, I believe the best I can do is adhere to the manufacturer's requirements until warranty expires. After that, I will try to rely on the best information I can find which hopefully originates from a source with real technical/professional credentials, e.g. a member of the Society of Automotive Engineers who specialize in lubrication and oil analysis.
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
Same here. I started using M1 5-20 in 1978 in an engine calling for 10-40. My engine performed very well. I also used 20 wt Valvoline in the late 60s and early 70s. I heard the same "your going to damage your engine with 20wt" argument then. Some things just never change.


Great story, Can you remember any details, engine type, how many miles did you rack up on this engine, What condition was it in at the end.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Well, I agree those may be the reasons. But to extrapolate that into thinking engine longevity will be increased by using a heaver oil - as the article apparently states - is not valid. No one can show that it is, can they? Has anyone?


http://web.mit.edu/rktakata/www/thesis_final.pdf

Figure 3-35...


That was an interesting and informative article. I will read it again when I have more time. At this point it might add to the thick vs. thin war already in progress here. I'll sit back and watch for now.
36.gif
 
Problem is that although it was free and is more recent than the other stuff...there's an awful lot of reading.

Not intended as a thin versus thick war...the war is feel/supposition and idolatory versus engineering
 
kschachn said:
Do you have that technical information, at least sufficient to cause you to deviate from the manufacturer's recommendations? A serious question.

No and I probably wouldn't understand the technical information if I had it unless a qualified person put it in simple layman's terms. However, when people like specialists in the field of lubrication suggest that the manufacturer's recommendations are made for their own reasons and not necessarily for providing me with the best protection for my car's engine, I seriously have to consider taking their advice. This is especially true when their advice actually means for me to go with my past practice of using a xw30 oil which worked for me in the past without a problem.

Who knows, maybe the reason General Motors has been so reluctanat to switch over to the thinner xw20 weight oils is because of their lengthy power train warranty! LOL
Click to expand...
 
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kschachn said:
That's a nice article that actually gives no proof that lighter oils are harmful to today's engines. And look at that last paragraph - sound familiar? How odd that it is virtually identical to the paragraphs cited by the OP.

Maybe Blaine Ballentine is a pen name for Jim Fitch, who is reportedly a very reputable engineer who has even been used by major oil companies as an expert witness on lubrication issues.


In the book, it gives Blaine Ballentine credit for the statement.
Click to expand...
 
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Originally Posted By: wally6934
Originally Posted By: tig1
Same here. I started using M1 5-20 in 1978 in an engine calling for 10-40. My engine performed very well. I also used 20 wt Valvoline in the late 60s and early 70s. I heard the same "your going to damage your engine with 20wt" argument then. Some things just never change.


Great story, Can you remember any details, engine type, how many miles did you rack up on this engine, What condition was it in at the end.


Valvoline 20wt was used in a 69 Ford Fairlane 6 cyl. I put 120K on the engine, which was a lot of miles in those days. When sold it ran great. I used M1 5-20 in a 78 Dodge pickup with the slant 6. The engine performed great compared to the 10-40 FF. The MPG increased also, and the winter cold starts were great as we lived in Maine at the time. I also used it in a 78 Chev V8 and there was a world of improvement in it, with cold starts and engine performance. I only put 120K on the Chev as well. Been using M1 oils ever since. I don't know much about oil engineering, or the points of data some do here, I only have many years of experience to follow which as served me well.
 
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That's an interesting site. I spent some time looking through their stuff.

It amused me that their video "How to Use a Grease Gun" is only $237, through October. I'm sure there's more to using one than I know....

Originally Posted By: Spudislander
In the book, it gives Blaine Ballentine credit for the statement.
 
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