Noria Publications Implications to Me on Thin Oils

[Spudislander]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
That's an interesting site. I spent some time looking through their stuff.

It amused me that their video "How to Use a Grease Gun" is only $237, through October. I'm sure there's more to using one than I know....

Originally Posted By: Spudislander
In the book, it gives Blaine Ballentine credit for the statement.


I expect there is!

 

[Spudislander]

As the announcer for the Pittsburgh Penguins would say: "Ladies and gentlemen, Elvis just left the building!"

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
That's an interesting site. I spent some time looking through their stuff.

It amused me that their video "How to Use a Grease Gun" is only $237, through October. I'm sure there's more to using one than I know....


Noria training programs for maintenance professionals are amoung the best in the business. When you pay $400 for a training video, it's expected that you are using it to train the service crew at a large industrial facility (like mining operation) or in a trade class at a technical school. They also offer week long training seminars, on site training etc that can cost up to $1000/person. They have top notch resources and have done a great job in helping apply lubrication theory to practical applications.

Originally Posted By: kschachn
And if things have changed significantly as I agree they have, then why is this company charging people for outdated information?


Just like most organizations that produce textbooks or other training materials, they still charge for it. Many of the things they were saying 10 years ago still applies, you just have to take into account that you won't be getting the current, most up to date research from a text book, that's where finding info from multiple sources - including SAE papers is a good practice. Being as there are many consumers that are operating on opinions and wives tales from 30-50 years ago that have been passed on through the generations, I think a 10 year old book isn't that bad...

 

[Lex94]

Yup. Mechanics are Luddites with very few exceptions.

Thanks for that MIT study, Shannow.

 

[kschachn]

That figure you cite, did you see the viscosities?

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Well, I agree those may be the reasons. But to extrapolate that into thinking engine longevity will be increased by using a heaver oil - as the article apparently states - is not valid. No one can show that it is, can they? Has anyone?


http://web.mit.edu/rktakata/www/thesis_final.pdf

Figure 3-35...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
That figure you cite, did you see the viscosities?

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Well, I agree those may be the reasons. But to extrapolate that into thinking engine longevity will be increased by using a heaver oil - as the article apparently states - is not valid. No one can show that it is, can they? Has anyone?


http://web.mit.edu/rktakata/www/thesis_final.pdf

Figure 3-35...


I actually read the paper...did you ?

Then you would understand what "mean viscosity" meant in the context of the chart.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
That's an interesting site. I spent some time looking through their stuff.

It amused me that their video "How to Use a Grease Gun" is only $237, through October. I'm sure there's more to using one than I know....


Yep, there is. Throw an average Joe who "knows what he's doing" at $1B of power station plant, and you will have breakdowns inside 2 years, with wrong grease in the wrong spot, dirt and rubbish introduced into the grease gun, bushes and bearings, blown seals, underlubricated bearings, overlubricated bearings (both of those it's cheaper to train the greaser than wait for the vibration monitoring experts to come back and tell you).

Power station greasers get a couple of days training in how to use their grease gun.

 

[kschachn]

Yeah, I printed it out and read it in bed last night. Hot date night.

Originally Posted By: Shannow
I actually read the paper...did you ?

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: NateDN10
It's always a tradeoff. For example, 0W-20 will protect better at startup until the oil warms up, especially when compared against a 10W-30 or 15W-40. Oil will flow to the top end much more quickly..


Once oil is at location, has it really been proven that eg. a 20 will result in less wear than a 30?

For years the statement "most engine wear occurs at startup" has been bandied around, but once oil is at location, has there ever been evidence to prove that?

Does logically concluding that "well, 0w20 is closer to the operational viscosity than 5w20 grade when cold" mean that it's resulting in less wear? Will a valvetrain wear out faster with cold 55cSt oil vs 38cSt????

Mr. Fitch makes valid points. He didn't say engines will grenade on CAFE grades, he said that in case something goes wrong ie stuck thermostat that you can benefit from the added buffer of viscosity. Nobody can prove him wrong, because he is not wrong. Industry, and some of us, value the life of our equipment more than saving a tenth of a percent on operation costs, and we want to sweat every detail and every scenario. That doesn't mean that those who don't think twice about engine lubrication can't get an average engine service life.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
Originally Posted By: NateDN10
It's always a tradeoff. For example, 0W-20 will protect better at startup until the oil warms up, especially when compared against a 10W-30 or 15W-40. Oil will flow to the top end much more quickly..


Once oil is at location, has it really been proven that eg. a 20 will result in less wear than a 30?


I've tried to make that point repeatedly over the years.

Ex Castrol Engineer that I was dining with one evening explained that the cold thick oil in place keeps parts separated, and it's the period where it starts thinning, and before the adds kick in that the wear is taking place...not the seconds that it takes for the oil to get there (admitedly, 15W-40 at 0F will take a lot more seconds, but the remaining films are also much more thick).

This 0W-20 protects more during warm-up, I have never seen any evidence for...I agree that in extreme (for me) temperatures the oil will reach the end point faster, but that doesn't mean more protection during warm-up.

 

[CATERHAM]

I buy the argument that thicker oil has an advantage the split second an engine is cranked but that's what AW additives are for.
The faster flow of lighter oil to critical parts that micro second later certainly more than makes up for it.
And on cold starts that's when the serious advantages of the lighter oil come into play. At 0C a high VI 0W-20 like TGMO has a still way heavier than optimum kinematic viscosity at over 200cSt. A 15W-40 is over 1,300cSt. The time difference for oil to get to the camshaft is significant.

 

[Cardenio327]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
and it's the period where it starts thinning, and before the adds kick in that the wear is taking place...


^^Exactly^^

Film strength during start up and the time it takes for oil pressure to reach all points on a cold start have little affect on over all total wear.

For example, if an engine requires somewhere between 10 and 15 cSt to properly lubricate the rings and make an ideal compression seal, TGMO 0w-20 is going to prevent much more wear at 200 cSt @ 0 °C and a 15w-40 will cause much more wear at 1300 cSt @ 0 °C. The further the oil viscosity is from ideal the worse the compression seal will be, causing fuel and compression gases to wash past the rings, hence causing more wear to take place.

Ring wear is what causes an engine to wear out. Bearing wear causes catastrophic failure, but lets face it, engines are considered worn out when they have low compression and burn oil. Bearing failure is usually caused by low oil level starvation and contamination by coolant. It is really doubtful that it would be common for bearings to wear out in a somewhat cared for engine before the rings and cylinders wear out.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
Once oil is at location, has it really been proven that eg. a 20 will result in less wear than a 30?

Or that a 20 causes more wear than a 30?