Nokian Hakka R2 winter tires

[UG_Passat]

I'm suprised Bridgestone is still milking the molds for the LM-60... as the only difference between the LM-60 and WS-60 was the tread compound.

I wonder why they haven't come up with a LM-70 yet?

 

[Nebroch]

Originally Posted By: krzyss
Did they post what was temperature during the ice test?

Krzys


No, they don't specify testing conditions unfortunately.

 

[SubLGT]

Originally Posted By: Nebroch
Ok, someone posted detailed test results from the magazine to internet, and here are some main results for three best studless:

Ice braking distance: WS70 55.6 m, R2 56.4 m and Xi3 61.0 m (Hakka 8 studded 40.7 m, ouch)
Ice handling points (0-10): R2 8p, Xi3 8p and WS70 7p

Snow braking: Xi3 54.3 m, R2 54.5 m and WS70 54.8 m
Snow handling: Xi3 10p, R2 10p and WS70 9p

Wet asphalt braking: Xi3 34.9 m, R2 35.2 m and WS70 35.5 m
Wet asphalt handling: Xi3 8p, R2 6p and WS70 6p

Dry asphalt braking: WS70 26.8 m, Xi3 28.2 m and R2 28.7 m
Dry asphalt handling: Xi3 8p, WS70 7p and R2 6p

Directional stability points (0-10): Xi3 9p, R2 7p and WS70 7p

WS70 does surprisingly well?


I'm surprised the WS70 did so well in dry handling. A lot of owner reviews fault the WS70 for its dry road performance.

And I am surprised that the Xi3 did so well on ice handling, and relatively poor on ice braking. It has been the ice braking champ the last few years, and usually posted the slowest times on the ice handling track, because of poor lateral traction on ice.

It's a topsy turvy world!

 

[SubLGT]

Originally Posted By: krzyss
Did they post what was temperature during the ice test?

Krzys


Judging it based on the gap in ice braking distances for the studded Hakka 8 and the other tires, I am willing to bet that the test temperatures were on the "warm" side, in the 20-32 degF range

 

[SubLGT]

Nebroch, do you know if testing this year included resistance to slush planing?

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: supton
That does make for a good question: what do you do when the snow tire gets to half-way? So far, on my dedicate snows, I've wound up with various reasons to get rid of at that point (flat spots, noise, sold the car).

Some winter tires have indicator marks. Tire Rack calls them "snow platforms".

Nokian has newer tires that contain wear indicators that disappear by the millimeter as they wear:

http://www.nokiantires.com/verify-tyre-wear

Continental has something in their DWS all-season. The S goes first, then the W, and finally the D.

 

[y_p_w]

Nokian does something similar for their winter tires, but they apparently stop at 4mm. It wouldn't exactly mark the 6/32" tread depth requirement for snow tires in many states, but it's close.

 

[Rand]

Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
I'm suprised Bridgestone is still milking the molds for the LM-60... as the only difference between the LM-60 and WS-60 was the tread compound.

I wonder why they haven't come up with a LM-70 yet?


they look similar but all the lm-60 I saw had 3 channels and the ws-70 had 4 channels?
or is that because the tires are different width?

The ws-70 isnt as bad as some winter tires as far as dry handling as long as its below 35F
It is mushy in the corners, but its not something obnoxious like a cooper wintermaster+

the whole special compound thing is pretty much a moot point as I replace winter tires around 5/32 anyway (or run them down to 2/32 during spring-summer)
and of course the deep snow traction drops off dramatically once you get below 5-6/32

 

[supton]

No, my question was, what do you do when the tire is no longer a snow tire? Just run it as if it were an all season?

 

[SubLGT]

Originally Posted By: Nebroch
Ok, someone posted detailed test results from the magazine to internet, and here are some main results for three best studless:

Ice braking distance: WS70 55.6 m, R2 56.4 m and Xi3 61.0 m (Hakka 8 studded 40.7 m, ouch)
Ice handling points (0-10): R2 8p, Xi3 8p and WS70 7p................


And ice handling course: Xi3: 69.6s, R2: 71.6s, and WS70: 74.2s

Looks like MIchelin has made some internal changes to the Xi3 this year to improve its lateral ice grip, but at the expense of longitudinal ice grip. And thus it gets excellent scores, subjective and objective, on the ice handling course, unlike last year when it received mediocre scores.

 

[Darris]

Originally Posted By: supton
No, my question was, what do you do when the tire is no longer a snow tire? Just run it as if it were an all season?


I don't think you're going to get a consensus on this, but I presonally wouldn't it in the winter once it's down 5mm. Not with my driving style and location.

At this point they should be "finished off" in the spring & summer either by you or someone else who's summers or allseasons are also worn out.

Although most of todays winter tires don't relly so much on tread depth, it still helps. Besides by the time you have worn them to 25% you must have degraded the compound as well.

Also I've read many anecdotes from owners of tires with various high-tech compund additives (or suction features) that these elements which work miracles on ice tend to degrade after a couple of seasons even before treadwear becomes an issue ... particularly Blizzak & Graspic owners tend to post sharply reduced performance after the first couple of seasons.

The only such tire I ever owned ws the Toyo G-O2Plus but only for two winters so I didn't get to evaluate then long term.

 

[krzyss]

Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Originally Posted By: krzyss
Did they post what was temperature during the ice test?

Krzys


Judging it based on the gap in ice braking distances for the studded Hakka 8 and the other tires, I am willing to bet that the test temperatures were on the "warm" side, in the 20-32 degF range


After reading Russian test about "warm ice" testing I would think so too.
Studs work better on not so cold ice hence my question.

Krzys

 

[krzyss]

Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Originally Posted By: Nebroch
Ok, someone posted detailed test results from the magazine to internet, and here are some main results for three best studless:

Ice braking distance: WS70 55.6 m, R2 56.4 m and Xi3 61.0 m (Hakka 8 studded 40.7 m, ouch)
Ice handling points (0-10): R2 8p, Xi3 8p and WS70 7p................


And ice handling course: Xi3: 69.6s, R2: 71.6s, and WS70: 74.2s

Looks like MIchelin has made some internal changes to the Xi3 this year to improve its lateral ice grip, but at the expense of longitudinal ice grip. And thus it gets excellent scores, subjective and objective, on the ice handling course, unlike last year when it received mediocre scores.


How do you get new Xi3 instead of yesteryear?
I suspect the USA still has old model in the warehouses.

Krzys

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Cold ice has traction. If it's sunny out or close to freezing, ice is slippery.

 

[Nebroch]

Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Nebroch, do you know if testing this year included resistance to slush planing?


That would have been nice, but they didn't. Maybe russians or norwegians test that.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: supton
No, my question was, what do you do when the tire is no longer a snow tire? Just run it as if it were an all season?

I guess you could run them down, but once the temps start going up and there's less snow/water on the ground they're going to wear down really quickly. They're also going to tend towards being squirmy and generally poor performing when it warms up.

The publicized reason for a lot of tires having only their best compound on the top of the tread is that they would be miserable because it's just too soft to use it for the entire tread depth.

 

[Nebroch]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w

The publicized reason for a lot of tires having only their best compound on the top of the tread is that they would be miserable because it's just too soft to use it for the entire tread depth.


Sipe locks are used to decrease that behavior. Compound also hardens with age which can somewhat help summer use too

 

[supton]

I can buy that. Makes me wonder why they can't make a 30kmile tire, or perhaps 25k... Buy a set every year, in the fall; wear off the winter rubber over the winter, and once half-worn, run the remainder during the summer.

I suppose if you drive the "normal" amount per year, you could buy a set every other year.

It's the cheapskate in me who wants to run the tire until it's at the wearbars.

 

[SubLGT]

Originally Posted By: krzyss
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Originally Posted By: Nebroch
Ok, someone posted detailed test results from the magazine to internet, and here are some main results for three best studless:

Ice braking distance: WS70 55.6 m, R2 56.4 m and Xi3 61.0 m (Hakka 8 studded 40.7 m, ouch)
Ice handling points (0-10): R2 8p, Xi3 8p and WS70 7p................


And ice handling course: Xi3: 69.6s, R2: 71.6s, and WS70: 74.2s

Looks like MIchelin has made some internal changes to the Xi3 this year to improve its lateral ice grip, but at the expense of longitudinal ice grip. And thus it gets excellent scores, subjective and objective, on the ice handling course, unlike last year when it received mediocre scores.


How do you get new Xi3 instead of yesteryear?
I suspect the USA still has old model in the warehouses.

Krzys


I wonder if the Xi3 (and R2) sold (and tested) in the Scandinavian market is 100% identical to the Xi3 (and R2) sold in the north American market ???? It is no secret that manufacturers can and do make tires that differ for different regional markets, even though the name and tread design are identical. I sent an email to Nokian 6 months ago via their contact page, asking if the R2 sold in North America is 100% identical to the R2 sold in Russia and the Scandinavian market, and they replied "Nokian Hakkapeliitta R is the same in every country."

Assuming the Xi3 tested by TM is identical to the one available in the USA, I guess if you want the benefit of better lateral ice traction you will need to specify at the time of purchase you want tires from the most recent production run, which is probably late 2012 or early 2013. Or buy a size, like 215/45R17, that was not available last winter season.

 

[SubLGT]

Originally Posted By: Nebroch
...............WS70 does surprisingly well?


Yes, it does. Better dry pavement behavior than last year, without sacrificing ice and snow traction. But I wonder if the WS70 you can buy in Finland is 100% identical to the one sold in the north American market?