Noisy Ford 5.4

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Originally Posted By: Cujet
My 09 5.4L was spec'd for 5w-20. UOA and noise were not all that great on Motorcraft 5W-20 or M1 5W-20.

A switch to standard M1, 10W-30 has made all the difference. UOA results are now superb, extended drain intervals are possible based on UOA and the engine is totally quiet.

This parallels my previous truck (gave to my brother) , a 4.6L, that simply had far better UOA results on M1, 10W-30. At nearly 300,000 miles now (still running perfectly BTW) , I guess the use of M1 10W-30 was a complete success. I can't wait to borescope the cylinders again. I'll bet they are perfect, just like at 225,000 miles!

So, you know my suggestion! BTW, I'm in South Florida.


I used M1 10-30 in my 4.6 Merc GM with the same success for 218K at 10K OCIs.
 
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Cujet
My 09 5.4L was spec'd for 5w-20. UOA and noise were not all that great on Motorcraft 5W-20 or M1 5W-20.

My best (and longest) UOA on my 2010 5.4L was on M1 0W-20; it just goes to show that engines (even those in the same family) all have differences and do not always react to oils in the same way.


From what I understand the 0W M1 oils are higher quality.
 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: Klutch9
IIRC, there was a TSB from Ford regarding the cam phasing noise on the 5.4s. The solution? 10w40 oil. Search the internet, you will find it.


^^yep


NOPE! It was not a TSB.
 
For the 536th time on this site I am going to tell every one that the TSB you are looking for no longer exists and when it did it was not to fix the typical cam phaser noise. Bad info on the internet is like Herpes one person gets it and spreads it to the world.
 
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Cujet
My 09 5.4L was spec'd for 5w-20. UOA and noise were not all that great on Motorcraft 5W-20 or M1 5W-20.
My best (and longest) UOA on my 2010 5.4L was on M1 0W-20; it just goes to show that engines (even those in the same family) all have differences and do not always react to oils in the same way.
From what I understand the 0W M1 oils are higher quality.
Likely; but my point was each engine has unique characteristics and the same oil may perform differently in the same family. There are many others here running MC and M1 (not AFE) with good results (as well as many others).
 
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Even if it wasn't a TSB someone must have figured it out so its still a fix band-aid that may mask the noise but will not solve the problem.

If the problem is the cam phasers as opposed to loud injectors or general valve train noise, running a heavier oil may mask the noise but not solve the root cause of the problem. Run the specified oil for the engine and if there is a true mechanical problem, it should be repaired, not covered up. I would not run 15W-40 in a Ford Modular, but to each his or her own.
 
Quiet is ALWAYS better. Quiet means the mechanical device, in this case a Ford Modular V8, is getting lubricated properly. Stay with the 10W-40.
 
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Even if it wasn't a TSB someone must have figured it out so its still a fix band-aid that may mask the noise but will not solve the problem.

If the problem is the cam phasers as opposed to loud injectors or general valve train noise, running a heavier oil may mask the noise but not solve the root cause of the problem. Run the specified oil for the engine and if there is a true mechanical problem, it should be repaired, not covered up. I would not run 15W-40 in a Ford Modular, but to each his or her own.


Maybe you could do a UOA of something 40 weight next time like 10w40 conventional? Might be a good experiment for you. I doubt wear goes up at all.
 
Originally Posted By: Lex94
Just use Pennzoil Ultra 5w20 and be done with it.
This oil made my noisy Subaru quiet.


From everything i have gathered on the web, the 5.4 issue is very unique and even though Ultra 5w20 is a superior oil, it won't do much for the noise on these engines. I don't believe the noise is anything but annoying though.
 
Originally Posted By: cb_13
For the 536th time on this site I am going to tell every one that the TSB you are looking for no longer exists and when it did it was not to fix the typical cam phaser noise. Bad info on the internet is like Herpes one person gets it and spreads it to the world.


You are right, a bad cam phaser won't be "fixed" by higher viscosity oil.

However, many of us have 5.4L engines that produce a subtle but annoying low frequency knock that is evident when, for example, idling by a concrete wall in 1st gear. Such as when pulling in a garage with cab windows open. The switch from 5W-20 to 10W-30 syn does help reduce this noise. My truck produced this noise early on. The switch in viscosity remains "the fix".

I learned this from the local Ford dealership, who was actually able to demonstrate the improvement the improvement to me on a vehicle in the shop. I was impressed. They simply use dino 10W-40. They continue to report near 100% customer satisfaction.

And, by the way, cam phaser replacement warranty jobs have slowed to a trickle. The ones that fail are typically operated on lower quality dino oil, extended drain intervals and the engines are often filthy inside.

FYI, my OCI frequency, based on UOA results of the 10W-30 M1 is 6000 miles.
 
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Originally Posted By: Bandito440
That 10w-40 won't hurt a thing. Go for it!

Rotella T Triple 15w-40 or T6 5w-40 are fine choices too.


We had a company truck (1997 F-150 4.6) that ran its entire long life on 15W-40, because that's what the shop had.
 
I find this post useless without the year of this 5.4...
its your vehicle you can put in whatever you want... I switched to RP 5W-30 (from 5w-20 dino) engine noise and oil use got alot better.
 
For those that are curious here's the Ford oasis message on running the 10W-40:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1919631/

If you want to go with a slightly thicker oil, mix in a couple of quarts of 5W-30. Since my F150 had a 7 quart sump and I still had a lot of 5W-30 to get rid of, I would just add 2 quarts of 5W-30 to the 5 quarts of 5W-20 during the oil change. I would end up with a thick 5W-20 or a very thin 5W-30. The engine was very quiet for the time that I owned it.
 
The 5.4s are noisy by nature and the totally quiet ones are few in number.

I have a 5.4L (a noisey one) so have been following this since '08 and gathering information from many sources, including here, FoMoCo (off the record) and a nearby Ford dealer. The 10W40 thing doesn't work a lot of the time, or work fully. I.E. it may be a total waste of time, effort and money. A thick-in-grade10W30 HDEO didn't quiet my engine (read on), so I doubt a 10W40 would.

The 5.4L engines are noisy by nature and, for the most part, that noise is benign. Ford knows that well. In the year that 10W40 bulletin came out, they were particularly noisy so they came up with what is more or less a placebo. If you read the bulletin, you will see it is designed to eliminate noise only, not to solve any real mechanical problems. It may or may not relieve the noise but it does create some other issues that make for a sub-optimal operating conditions. The bulletin gave me me pause to think about some of the "group-think" about the 5.4L and I did some experiments.

At the time that bulletin appeared, it had long been said that heavy oils could make the VCT malfunction since it was designed around a 5W20 grade oil. In light of the 10W40 info, I questioned that. As an experiment that started two-plus years ago, I put in 10W30 Motorcraft Super Duty oil, an HDEO designed for use in PSD Fords. I then datalogged the VCT operation on my programmer in a variety of conditions and compared those logs to the ones taken with the engine on 5W20. No difference. That backed up the fact that a heavier oil (at least as heavy as a very thick 10W30) had no effect on VCT operation. That makes sense. If there were issues, it's not likely Ford would allow the use of 10W40, even in a band-aid situation, or recommend 30 grade oils in their overseas markets like Australia.

BUT... I noticed other things like monumentally high oil pressure. My truck has real oil pressure gauges installed (two, on either side of the filter to monitor differential pressure at the filter. The dampened thing on the dash always shows a happy face, so you can't rely on it for much of anything beyond what an idiot lite can do. With 10W30 on cold days, it was not unusual to see 100 PSI oil pressure, even 120 a couple of times (while the dash gage read the same as normal). 10W40 would likely be even higher. I ran 15K on that 10W30 oil, taking UOAs at 5, 10 and 15K( seach the UOA section). The results were fine, but no better than with 5W20, so my limited snapshots of a few UOAs, compared to my previous ones, and all the those on BITOG, showed no wear advantage with a heavier oil. I am now back on 5W20.

Incidentally, the noise issues DID NOT CHANGE WITH THE ADDITION OF 10W30. It was just as noisy as 5W20... or just as quiet, depending on your POV.

I think I provided a smidgen of proof that 10W30, and potentially 10W40, is not particularly harmful to the 5.4L but is it in any way beneficial? IMO, no. The heavier oil increases the likelihood of oil filter bypass and oil pump pressure relief (the valve opens at 70 psi), neither of which is beneficial to the engine. I datalogged the oil filter differential pressure for about 10K miles on my truck with the 10W30 and have done so now that I'm back on 5W20. You can see some of that data in the oil filter section. What I learned is that with the 10W30 oil, filter bypass was most common on cold starts or spirited driving when the oil was below about 160 degrees (which takes 10 miles of steady driving, minimum, in warmish weather). In the same circumstances with 5W20, oil filter bypass virtually never happens, even cold starts at 25F. Less bypass is better than more bypass in the long run.

Thicker oil creates more fluid friction so it will cost you some efficiency... read fuel economy. It's slight and won't show up on a handful of mpg calcs, but it will show up long term with diligent recordkeeping. With 10W30, I didn't see a drop that was outside the margin for error. I can say that after watching it for two years, it did trend downward but, again, not outside the margin for error. 10W40 is considerably thicker. The mpg loss won't hit you hard but it will take some tiny bites.

So, my opinion is that an oil two grades heavier than spec'ed may not be harmful but it isn't beneficial. You need to weigh the importance of reducing or eliminating what is largely a benign noise against the loss of efficiency and the potential impacts on long term wear (as outlined above). Being in Florida gives you a slight climate/temperature edge that will help reduce the downsides, but having seen how the 10W30 operates in hot weather here, IMO the potential for more bypasses and fuel economy losses are still there. If you try it, drive gently during warmups, especially during what passes for "cold" in Florida. It's unlikely you have the means to monitor oil temp as I do but if you drive gently for about 10 miles in 75 deg weather, you will be past 160F OT and are largely safe from filter bypass if you keep the revs below 4000.

I suppose you can try some 10W40 but don't fall victim to the placebo effect as many do here. In my case, it initially seemed like my engine quieted down a little. Wishful thinking on my part. In a couple of weeks, my ear was back in calibration and I realized it was just as noisy. The switch back to 5W20 didn't yield any increased noises. I had steeled myself into total objectivity so was precalibrated to note any changes.
 
My 3V 5.4 is pretty quiet on 5W-20. (I used Maxlife for a while and now PP) There's a little bit of noise, but certainly nothing excessive.
 
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Even if it wasn't a TSB someone must have figured it out so its still a fix band-aid that may mask the noise but will not solve the problem.
If the problem is the cam phasers as opposed to loud injectors or general valve train noise, running a heavier oil may mask the noise but not solve the root cause of the problem. Run the specified oil for the engine and if there is a true mechanical problem, it should be repaired, not covered up. I would not run 15W-40 in a Ford Modular, but to each his or her own.
Maybe you could do a UOA of something 40 weight next time like 10w40 conventional? Might be a good experiment for you. I doubt wear goes up at all.
I think the better experiment is to show that xW-20 is not the thin monster that wears out engines that an xW-30 or xW-40 would have lasting twice as long. In addition, the DP testing the Jim Allen recently performed clearly indicates a heavier oil in a modular is not always a good idea. I will stay with the oil grade that I paid countless Ford engineers through the purchase of the truck to test and choose.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Quiet is ALWAYS better. Quiet means the mechanical device, in this case a Ford Modular V8, is getting lubricated properly. Stay with the 10W-40.

So somehow an oil that was never spec'ed for the engine lubricates better than the oil that was? More likely, the heavier oil is masking the sound, but that has little to do with lack of lubrication that is miraculously being cured with a heavier viscosity.
 
Originally Posted By: Tuffy1760
I find this post useless without the year of this 5.4...
its your vehicle you can put in whatever you want... I switched to RP 5W-30 (from 5w-20 dino) engine noise and oil use got alot better.


Doesn't look like the OP has returned to answer this, but we're talking about the 3V 5.4, so it's a 2004+ F-150 or 2005+ F-250/350.
 
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