NOAK evaporation and GDI engines

[wolf_06]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrLNDgrIw3U I was watching this video, and as a owner of a direct injection car, 2018 Mazda 3 that I got brand new, now at 40,000 km, I realized how direct injection is an amazing technology, but seems to have his flaws. So this guy seems to say that to have less evaporation going in the PCV valve and being recycled in the intake and sucked back in by the intake valves, which is where they apparently get gummed up, to use a oil with a lower NOAK evaporation, basically that wont evaporate as quick so it doesn't end up gunking up the intake valve. That being said, he also mention that a 0w20 or a 20 weight oil will evaporate quicker and gum the intake valve more. The 20 weight oil seems to have higher evaporation %. His opinion is to go with a thicker oil that will have less evaporation, less crankcase gas, less gunk on the intake valve. So basically a top quality low evaporation synthetic oil in a 30 weight, 5w30 or 0w30 would be ideal for GDI. He didn't mentioned anything with quality of fuel, octane ratings, detergents, so basically 87 octave vs 91 or higher. In my manual, Mexico recommends 5w30 at a 5000 km OCI, with no real specific mention of a synthetic oil. Maybe, just maybe a low NOAK dino oil changed at 3,000 miles the old fashion way would prevent this? Or a good synthetic low NOAK changed at 5,000 miles. Any of you had problems with direction injection like this? Needed a valve cleaning service? Or course the dealership will jump on this to make money. Another thing, who knows what kind of oil the dealership puts in my car, they say its Petro Canada 0w20 full syn, but who really knows, they want to make a profit, not really caring for my intake valve IMO. I would appreciate your inputs on this, Thanks!

 

[OVERKILL]

You can't simply infer Noack from the viscosity on the bottle, it's something you need to check (regardless of its relationship with the IVD issue, which is a whole topic unto itself). You can have a 5w-30 with a Noack of 15% and a 0w-20 with a Noack of 7% for example. The PQIA site has plenty of data on Noack for various oils if it isn't present on the manufacturer's PDS.

 

[PimTac]

1. It's Noack. 2. The Mazda SkyActiv engines have shown to handle the problems of carbon buildup much better than the average when it comes to GDI engines. 3. Run the 0w20 with no worries. The engine was designed for that grade from the outset. If you worry about what is in the sump, the best way to solve that is to change the oil yourself. That is very easy with that car.

 

[Olas]

use a pan-e-vac and never get any oil vapour in your inlet or on your valves.

 

[benjy]

you will notice few manufacturers post noack anymore because thinner oils being pushed have WORSE noacks. all things equal higher viscosity oils have BETTER noacks. to get a great noack with a watery oil you need to $$$ on real synthetic PAO + Ester oils. thinner base oils = worse noacks even with real synthetics!!

 

[wolf_06]

Originally Posted by benjy

you will notice few manufacturers post noack anymore because thinner oils being pushed have WORSE noacks. all things equal higher viscosity oils have BETTER noacks. to get a great noack with a watery oil you need to $$$ on real synthetic PAO + Ester oils. thinner base oils = worse noacks even with real synthetics!!

this makes total sens to me, thats why 5w30 is tempting for my next OCI.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by benjy

you will notice few manufacturers post noack anymore because thinner oils being pushed have WORSE noacks. all things equal higher viscosity oils have BETTER noacks. to get a great noack with a watery oil you need to $$$ on real synthetic PAO + Ester oils. thinner base oils = worse noacks even with real synthetics!!

All things are never equal however. Havoline Synthetic 5w-30: http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/havoline.htm Noack: 13% Mobil 1 AFE 0w-20: http://www.pqiadata.org/Mobil1_0W20_dexos.html Noack: 10.7% Mobil Super 5w-20: http://pqiadata.org/MobilSuper5W20.html Noack: 12.1% Oreilly 5w-30: http://www.pqiamerica.com/June%202014/oreilly.htm Noack: 15.4% Oreilly 0w-20: http://pqiadata.org/OReilly_0W20_dexos.html Noack: 11.8% Peak 5w-20: http://www.pqiamerica.com/Nov2013/Peak.htm Noack: 15.3%

 

[CT8]

There is mostly gasoline combustion byproducts and oil mist in the crankcase vapors besides the minimal amount of evaporated oil . Noak is a test for how the oil thickens in use.

 

[wolf_06]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL

Originally Posted by benjy

you will notice few manufacturers post noack anymore because thinner oils being pushed have WORSE noacks. all things equal higher viscosity oils have BETTER noacks. to get a great noack with a watery oil you need to $$$ on real synthetic PAO + Ester oils. thinner base oils = worse noacks even with real synthetics!!

All things are never equal however. Havoline Synthetic 5w-30: http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/havoline.htm Noack: 13% Mobil 1 AFE 0w-20: http://www.pqiadata.org/Mobil1_0W20_dexos.html Noack: 10.7% Mobil Super 5w-20: http://pqiadata.org/MobilSuper5W20.html Noack: 12.1% Oreilly 5w-30: http://www.pqiamerica.com/June%202014/oreilly.htm Noack: 15.4% Oreilly 0w-20: http://pqiadata.org/OReilly_0W20_dexos.html Noack: 11.8% Peak 5w-20: http://www.pqiamerica.com/Nov2013/Peak.htm Noack: 15.3%

LOL, the guy in the video mentioned to stay with a oil around 7% NOAK, is that even possible?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by wolf_06

Originally Posted by OVERKILL

Originally Posted by benjy

you will notice few manufacturers post noack anymore because thinner oils being pushed have WORSE noacks. all things equal higher viscosity oils have BETTER noacks. to get a great noack with a watery oil you need to $$$ on real synthetic PAO + Ester oils. thinner base oils = worse noacks even with real synthetics!!

All things are never equal however. Havoline Synthetic 5w-30: http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/havoline.htm Noack: 13% Mobil 1 AFE 0w-20: http://www.pqiadata.org/Mobil1_0W20_dexos.html Noack: 10.7% Mobil Super 5w-20: http://pqiadata.org/MobilSuper5W20.html Noack: 12.1% Oreilly 5w-30: http://www.pqiamerica.com/June%202014/oreilly.htm Noack: 15.4% Oreilly 0w-20: http://pqiadata.org/OReilly_0W20_dexos.html Noack: 11.8% Peak 5w-20: http://www.pqiamerica.com/Nov2013/Peak.htm Noack: 15.3%

LOL, the guy in the video mentioned to stay with a oil around 7% NOAK, is that even possible?

It's difficult and definitely overkill. Some of the Euro marques have a Noack ceiling of 10%, I think Mercedes being one of them. I think that's reasonable. Most 0w-40's are between 8 and 10%. M1 EP 0w-20 is probably around 9%, and that's likely the lowest you are going to find for a readily available 0w-20. There are other low Noack options like Redline and Amsoil, but you won't get any manufacturer approvals in their products with exceptionally low Noack. Ravenol DFE 0w-20 is 7.6% and has the Dexos approval: https://www.ravenol.de/en/product-range/motor-oils-for-passenger-cars-1/ravenol-dfe-sae-0w-20/ But you'll have to order it from Blauparts and shipping will be a killer. AMSOIL Signature Series 0w-20 is 8.5%, but lack any formal approvals if that matters to you: https://www.amsoil.ca/p/signature-series-0w-20-synthetic-motor-oil-asm/ But of note, their 5w-20 is 5.8%. Their PDS for the SS oils lists Noack for all of the grades: https://amsoilcontent.com/ams/lit/databulletins/g2880.pdf

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted by wolf_06

Any of you had problems with direction injection like this? Needed a valve cleaning service?

I think this is one of those things were a car-specific forum may be a better place to check. Certain VW/Audi engines were terrible for this issue. I bought an A3 for cheap because a guy was chasing misfires for 30K miles and finally gave up. It just needed a manual valve cleaning (dealer was replacing coils every 5K...). Newer VW's are much better. As far as deposits, keep in mind that some come from oil that's burned off, but in many cases (in modern engines with little consumption), it's actually unburnt hydrocarbons from the fuel that are primarily responsible. The fuel additives themselves can be responsible for the deposits. A low noack oil may help. It may be of minimal benefit.

 

[Ignatius]

Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 5w20 has a noticeably lower NOACK value and VII percentage than any Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 30 weight oil as well as most other oils on the market, period. This notion that a 20 weight oil is inferior to a 30 weight oil as far as evaporation and carbon buildup is concerned, well the data doesn't support it by default.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

I think the OP wants to know what the lowest Noack oils are in 5w30? In the mid-priced, I think Mobil-1 has two...... AP and ESP. Valvoline may have two.... Modern Engine and Advanced. Pennzoil Ultra Platinum may be on the low tier also. Same with Rotella Multi Vehicle. Anyone care to add to this, or eliminate any of the ones I suspect are pretty good Noack oils in 5w30?

 

[ka9mnx]

What I have read, in numerous sources, is Noak is not the issue. It's people neglecting oil changes.

 

[dwendt44]

Better designed baffles at the PCV would help. My 2¢

 

[Ignatius]

Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en

I think the OP wants to know what the lowest Noack oils are in 5w30? In the mid-priced, I think Mobil-1 has two...... AP and ESP. Valvoline may have two.... Modern Engine and Advanced. Pennzoil Ultra Platinum may be on the low tier also. Same with Rotella Multi Vehicle. Anyone care to add to this, or eliminate any of the ones I suspect are pretty good Noack oils in 5w30?

Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 5w30 is 8.0 NOACK. Outside of maybe Ravenol it is the lowest 5w30 NOACK I am aware of.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en

I think the OP wants to know what the lowest Noack oils are in 5w30? In the mid-priced, I think Mobil-1 has two...... AP and ESP. Valvoline may have two.... Modern Engine and Advanced. Pennzoil Ultra Platinum may be on the low tier also. Same with Rotella Multi Vehicle. Anyone care to add to this, or eliminate any of the ones I suspect are pretty good Noack oils in 5w30?

Mobil1 5W30 ESP in the 1 liter bottles (the "Formula" version) is about las low as you'll get--less the 6% from the VOA's that are out there. Of course, it's much thicker than the oil spec'd for the car (3.5 hths), so the question is "is it necessary or beneficial to use an oil that much thicker than spec'd?". I don't really know the answer.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Ignatius

Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en

I think the OP wants to know what the lowest Noack oils are in 5w30? In the mid-priced, I think Mobil-1 has two...... AP and ESP. Valvoline may have two.... Modern Engine and Advanced. Pennzoil Ultra Platinum may be on the low tier also. Same with Rotella Multi Vehicle. Anyone care to add to this, or eliminate any of the ones I suspect are pretty good Noack oils in 5w30?

Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 5w30 is 8.0 NOACK. Outside of maybe Ravenol it is the lowest 5w30 NOACK I am aware of.

M1 AP 5w-30 is 8.5%: http://www.pqiadata.org/Mobil1_Annual_Protection_5W30.html so pretty close. Of course Ravenol DXG 5w-30 is 6%, LOL https://www.ravenol.de/en/product-range/motor-oils-for-passenger-cars-1/ravenol-dxg-sae-5w-30/

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted by benjy

you will notice few manufacturers post noack anymore because thinner oils being pushed have WORSE noacks. all things equal higher viscosity oils have BETTER noacks. to get a great noack with a watery oil you need to $$$ on real synthetic PAO + Ester oils. thinner base oils = worse noacks even with real synthetics!!

That's probably a fair general rule; generally the lighter the molecule (which is what generally makes the lower viscosity), the less energy to volatilize. But narrower spreads and other factors make it that there's no absolute.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

All things being equal across a similar line 5w20 and 10w30 will have better/lower noack than 0w16,0w20,5w30 A higher viscosity with a higher numerical winter rating will do best if cold temperature performance is not critical. https://cglapps.chevron.com/sdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=518483&docFormat=PDF