No wonder we are going broke..

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Originally Posted By: Panzerman
Now everyone buys insurance and considers it a maintence program. How much would car insurance cost, if it coveredf every maintence problem and service, plus damage to your car, plus you had doctors working on it.


I disagree. It may have been that way back when we all had PPOs but things are rapidly changing. HSA/HDHP health plans are becoming very common and will soon be the norm for those who don't work for the government or large companies.

With an HDHP plan, you pay 100% of your medical bills until you hit your deductible. Most people I know have deductibles between $2,000 - $8,000. My deductible is $2,500 per person and $5,000 max for my family. If you have the flu, broken bone, or need some stitches, insurance wont pay anything. It really only kicks in for a hospitalization.
 
Originally Posted By: Silk
Originally Posted By: kb01

We just got the very good news that my wife's due date was adjusted to the first week in January. That means the doctor will likely be able to induce at the end of December, which which will result in a single years worth of deductibles. Having all of the prenatal care billed to one year and the delivery to another was going to break us financially.



Is this a normal way to think? Or have I just seen the huge chasm between cultures.


It's a cultural difference. Electing to have medical procedures (even child birth) before 12/31 is very common in the USA. Medical care is so incredibly expensive, many of us really don't have a choice, especially when treatment is spread out over two years.

Things can get even trickier if you're self insured. If you get sick around renewal time, you face the potential of either being dropped by your insurer or having your rates skyrocket to a point they're unaffordable. In those situations, you're better off having a procedure in January and praying to God that it's wrapped up by the end of the year incase your insurer drops you.
 
Originally Posted By: kb01
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
Now everyone buys insurance and considers it a maintence program. How much would car insurance cost, if it coveredf every maintence problem and service, plus damage to your car, plus you had doctors working on it.


I disagree. It may have been that way back when we all had PPOs but things are rapidly changing. HSA/HDHP health plans are becoming very common and will soon be the norm for those who don't work for the government or large companies.

With an HDHP plan, you pay 100% of your medical bills until you hit your deductible. Most people I know have deductibles between $2,000 - $8,000. My deductible is $2,500 per person and $5,000 max for my family. If you have the flu, broken bone, or need some stitches, insurance wont pay anything. It really only kicks in for a hospitalization.


High deductible plans are going to be a nightmare in the future. They will promote bad health as people will avoid seeking care because they will have to pay for it by themselves (on top of paying their insurance premiums). So the health status will deteriorate until they HAVE TO seek care when it will be a costly problem.
 
Quote:
High deductible plans are going to be a nightmare in the future. They will promote bad health as people will avoid seeking care because they will have to pay for it by themselves (on top of paying their insurance premiums). So the health status will deteriorate until they HAVE TO seek care when it will be a costly problem.


Maybe this explains why the English have bad teeth.
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: FowVay
Quote:
High deductible plans are going to be a nightmare in the future. They will promote bad health as people will avoid seeking care because they will have to pay for it by themselves (on top of paying their insurance premiums). So the health status will deteriorate until they HAVE TO seek care when it will be a costly problem.


Maybe this explains why the English have bad teeth.
smile.gif



The funny thing is that after having British friends and acquaintances for a couple of decades, I learned about their "bad teeth" issue after I came to the US. The stereotype we have here is quite untrue.
 
Well, Yes and No!
As a Brit (I still have citizenship) my experiance with the British Dental system may shed some light on the stereotype.
As a young boy I was treated with Free dental under the National Heath Service. I would go (as other kids in my area) for 6 month Dental check-ups/ treatment. It was not a pleasant experiance! I guess the dentist was paid (by the NHS) for the work they did, so it was to their advantage to inspect, Fill and Pull as many teeth, and as quickly as possible!. It was a common practice to Pull rear molars 'to make room' for upcoming wisdom teeth (I guess, wisdom teeth often cause problems, so they were being preemptive) I was picked up at school one afternoon by my parents, and taken to our Dentist (They did not tell me where I was going, as I my have caused problems!) At the Dentist I was taken strait into the the surgery, with my overcoat on, and sat in the chair with gas cylinders on it's back. Nitrous Oxide. (Dentists would have 'one day a week' where a doctor could be present for extractions under general anesthetic) Almost instantly the mask was held over my face (smelling of Rubber) and I was Anesthetized.
I came around some minutes later, missing 4 back teeth and bleeding profusely! (Nox tends to make you bleed to a great extent) and sent home!
It was a traumatic experiance, and for several years I made a point of making sure I did not go near a dentist.
Later on, when I started work, I did see a dentist on a regular basis (I had private medical coverage as part of my salary. A bit of a job perk and income tax dodge) The treatment I received was VERY good, perhaps even better than I have received in North America.
But I can imagine, some kids were scared 'for life', and now have Bad teeth as a result.
 
Sounds like the Oz system that all primary school children were put through 35 years ago...they still scare me spitless, and I've got a mouth full of amalgum.

Interesting, it's a private clinic that's doing free checks at the schools these days...they checked my childrens (good) teeth, and sent home a "report" with a frownie face.

7YO daughter "needed" crevaces in her molars filled, and probably a couple of extractions for crowding, and orthodontic work. 5YO son needed crevaces in molars filled.

Took them straight to our normal dentist (who they love going to, as she really talks up their tooth cleaning efforts), and she just laughed at them issuing frownie reports to drum up business.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Sounds like the Oz system that all primary school children were put through 35 years ago...they still scare me spitless, and I've got a mouth full of amalgum.

Interesting, it's a private clinic that's doing free checks at the schools these days...they checked my childrens (good) teeth, and sent home a "report" with a frownie face.

7YO daughter "needed" crevaces in her molars filled, and probably a couple of extractions for crowding, and orthodontic work. 5YO son needed crevaces in molars filled.

Took them straight to our normal dentist (who they love going to, as she really talks up their tooth cleaning efforts), and she just laughed at them issuing frownie reports to drum up business.



As it happens, the Dentist was, in my case, Australian.

Take that you bloody Pommy brat!
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: Shuttler
The value of the dollar is different on different sides of the street. Nothing new. All you have to do is to cross it to the other side. Nurses make on average $63k a year. So do accountants. Specialized nurses make much more. Kids who bust heir rear diffs off at McDonalds get no tips, kids at Starbucks do. So, what a kid to do? Most complain, some will cross the road.
All most customers want is the best price, best value is not for everybody. Differentiate yourself, and bill your customers accordingly. Takes a lot of effort, and the outcome is not always linear. Most of the time you have to put so much effort with zero output. Life is not fair. Social justice lives in the politicians' campaigns. Rather cozily at that.

Your ancestors crossed the road when they moved to this country. Some of them would reach their coveted homestead in the middle of Minnesota in the middle of the winter and half of their children die before spring. There was no unemployment benefit, social services, an interpreter to take them to the dentist, no dentists around - just a few friendly wolves. The core of this great country has changed a lot since then. Alexis de Tocqueville would not recognize it. We have a systemic problem: passive to active ratio is getting higher and higher. And politicians use this brilliantly.
And I believe that the school system fails us a lot. This is where the seeds of middle class crystals are supposed to be seeded. The only hope is family values and extraordinary individuals



Philosophically sound ..loaded with tenets and ideology ..but totally lacking in substance of realities. I will admit it's much better than the blathering of Billy O ..or the blubbering of Rush Limbarph ..but nebulous and void of sensible pathways.

You can't have a capitalist nation with all winners. You also can't have a fractional reserve system that makes ever increasing debt a requirement without adding more and more pawns to the ponzy scheme. Those things did not exist (the Fed Reserve) when homesteading was an adventure in Minn.

So, please, don't attribute all that much to some intestinal fortitude ..determination ..ingenuity..for if all possessed it ..there would still be ghettos and slums.

Most attainment and achievement is as it's always been, via either birthright or coincidence. The few rags to riches stories are just that, stories that provide either hope ...or mostly foolish belief.

Some will prosper ..some must not. Very simple. The rest or robbed where they cannot defend/protect ..and the victors in the scam enjoy the spoils.


Generations of immigrants have manage to come into this country and through intestinal fortitude and hard work, have managed to "make it." And that still happens today. And by making it, I don't mean they became millionaire bankers and doctors. I'm talking about people who went from poverty or non-status in their own countries to a middle class lifestyle, one that you seem to take for granted. I'd hardly call it false hope or foolish belief.

I'm not going to blow sunshine up your arse and tell you that capitalism is some panacea or nobody is going to get ripped off. Or that there is justice for all. But your constantly stream of whining is really tiring.

The great irony here is that you lived and profited off the greatest bubble ever created. Your biggest mistake is that you didn't question that post war ponzi until you started losing yield when they ran out of suckers to feed into the ponzi behind you. And now you are [censored]. You are just like the people you criticize, sucking off the world for most of your adult life. You were fully complicit in the theft but thought you "deserved" your yield. You didn't pay attention until your yield stopped and now you are seeing it for what it really is. But rather than taking some responsibility for the fact that you let yourself be suckered, you are looking for "thieves" to blame. I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the irony.

I'd have much more respect for you if you just admit that you were just another parasite, but that you weren't one of the alpha parasites. Not being very good at the game is nothing to be ashamed of. As you say, it's all a genetic coincidence. But this false nobility and projection of "I get it but you guys don't" image is really pretty tiring. Since you know all, I'm sure you can tell us the solution. But so far, I haven't heard any solutions from you, only complaints about thieves and capitalists.
 
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
High deductible plans are going to be a nightmare in the future. They will promote bad health as people will avoid seeking care because they will have to pay for it by themselves (on top of paying their insurance premiums). So the health status will deteriorate until they HAVE TO seek care when it will be a costly problem.


Preventive care is 100% covered. Personally I think people don't see doctors for flu anyways since it takes almost 3 days to make an appointment to see a doc and by the time you are there, you're recovered.
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
High deductible plans are going to be a nightmare in the future. They will promote bad health as people will avoid seeking care because they will have to pay for it by themselves (on top of paying their insurance premiums). So the health status will deteriorate until they HAVE TO seek care when it will be a costly problem.


Preventive care is 100% covered. Personally I think people don't see doctors for flu anyways since it takes almost 3 days to make an appointment to see a doc and by the time you are there, you're recovered.


Yours might be but ours is out of pocket.
 
Originally Posted By: CivicFan

High deductible plans are going to be a nightmare in the future. They will promote bad health as people will avoid seeking care because they will have to pay for it by themselves (on top of paying their insurance premiums). So the health status will deteriorate until they HAVE TO seek care when it will be a costly problem.


These plans have been around since 2003 (?), it would be interesting to see if any studies suggest that's how people will respond to having an HSA. It wouldn't surprise me if people in general are more willing to have money pulled from their paychecks for a higher premium vs. paying more out-of-pocket for each doctor visit.

In my situation, the premium difference between the PPO and HSA plan was more than enough to cover the difference in deductibles. If I recall, the HSA premium was about $5,000 less than the PPO and the deductible was only $4,250 more ($5,000 vs. $750).

It makes for a slight savings in my situation. At any rate, it sucks paying $10,000 - $15,000 each year for health insurance and health care. If our rates go up much at renewal time, there's a good chance we'll drop our insurance and buy a private plan for the kids.
 
My difference between HSA plan and EPO/PPO is about $800 for me alone per year. Company pay for a $500 initial balance and the deductible is about $1250, so technically I'm not going to lose much going for HSA other than the maximum out of pocket difference between $2000 and $4000 a year.

If my employer do drug test as hiring then it may be a lot cheaper. Not sure why, but we cannot find any over the counter pain killer at work. Maybe we've hired too many druggies?
 
Yup. All you have to do is to understand enough English to read the phone book. One can be anything and anywhere here. And it is not the health care system that is the culprit of the next big sovereign debt default.
 
I don't know why our leaders aren't doing more to bring down the cost of healthcare. It seems to me that would be the logical place to start if they want to improve our healthcare system. Costs are out of control!!!
 
It's a market system and the cards are stacked in favor of high costs. Are we ready, as a country, to pay less for:

- doctors;
- ever innovative equipment;
- new methods of treatment;
- new, and sometimes fancy, hospital buildings?

To illustrate, imagine that a loved one has stage 4 cancer (basically, means that the expected life is very short). Are you willing to say 'NO' when the doctor gives you an option for chemo and/or radio therapy? Most people want absolutely everything done.

Or another case, imagine a loved one had a premature baby. The cost of keeping the baby alive to the system will be $2 million dollars, and after the NICU is over, the child will have health issues throughout her life. Are you willing to say to NICU and let the child die?

I want to see the answers to these questions before people complain about the cost of health care.
 
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
It's a market system and the cards are stacked in favor of high costs. Are we ready, as a country, to pay less for:

- doctors;
- ever innovative equipment;
- new methods of treatment;
- new, and sometimes fancy, hospital buildings?

To illustrate, imagine that a loved one has stage 4 cancer (basically, means that the expected life is very short). Are you willing to say 'NO' when the doctor gives you an option for chemo and/or radio therapy? Most people want absolutely everything done.

Or another case, imagine a loved one had a premature baby. The cost of keeping the baby alive to the system will be $2 million dollars, and after the NICU is over, the child will have health issues throughout her life. Are you willing to say to NICU and let the child die?

I want to see the answers to these questions before people complain about the cost of health care.


I'd say no to chemo and yes to pull plugs to all of the above, and as a matter of fact, my family had answered yes to all of the above questions because we don't believe in torturing the livings to stretch out a few extra months of life supports for the dead.
 
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Originally Posted By: CivicFan
It's a market system and the cards are stacked in favor of high costs. Are we ready, as a country, to pay less for:

- doctors;
- ever innovative equipment;
- new methods of treatment;
- new, and sometimes fancy, hospital buildings?

To illustrate, imagine that a loved one has stage 4 cancer (basically, means that the expected life is very short). Are you willing to say 'NO' when the doctor gives you an option for chemo and/or radio therapy? Most people want absolutely everything done.

Or another case, imagine a loved one had a premature baby. The cost of keeping the baby alive to the system will be $2 million dollars, and after the NICU is over, the child will have health issues throughout her life. Are you willing to say to NICU and let the child die?

I want to see the answers to these questions before people complain about the cost of health care.


But you assume that the treatment like NICU should cost $2 million or what it does in the first place. Others think the cost for procedurers is too high in the first place. Saying either you pay these cost or get no treatment is a flase dichotomy.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
It's a market system and the cards are stacked in favor of high costs. Are we ready, as a country, to pay less for:

- doctors;
- ever innovative equipment;
- new methods of treatment;
- new, and sometimes fancy, hospital buildings?

To illustrate, imagine that a loved one has stage 4 cancer (basically, means that the expected life is very short). Are you willing to say 'NO' when the doctor gives you an option for chemo and/or radio therapy? Most people want absolutely everything done.

Or another case, imagine a loved one had a premature baby. The cost of keeping the baby alive to the system will be $2 million dollars, and after the NICU is over, the child will have health issues throughout her life. Are you willing to say to NICU and let the child die?

I want to see the answers to these questions before people complain about the cost of health care.


But you assume that the treatment like NICU should cost $2 million or what it does in the first place. Others think the cost for procedurers is too high in the first place. Saying either you pay these cost or get no treatment is a flase dichotomy.


The question was, would you pull the plug on the newborn? If you do, you save the system $2 million.

Or would you pull the plug on the cancer procedure to save $500k for the system?
 
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