No more Cruze, Impala, etc.

[philipp10]

Originally Posted by E365
Originally Posted by philipp10
Lots of you seem to think the sedan is dead. It's not, it is still 31% of the market and probably bottomed. GM and Ford just couldn't build sedans as economical and efficient as their competition (Toyota and Honda mainly). You don't see anyone else abandoning 31% of the market. Why? They got out of a profitless area to focus on the few areas left that are profitable. As far as a SUV/CUV, yeah, they are nice. But sedans have their place if you want to move and really drive your car. Some of us don't prefer to drive a box on wheels.


True, they're definitely not "dead", but I think it's quite possible we'll see other sedans and small cars from non-American makers be cut before long.

Check out the Oct 17 vs Oct 18 sales of the Nissan Maxima, Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris, Toyota Mirai, Subaru Legacy, Honda Civic, Kia Cadenza, Hyundai Accent, VW Golf and VW Passat.

All absolutely terrible. Most in the 30-70% drop in sales range. No chance they'll all survive.





but you must remember we just went through a cycle lasting about 7-8 years of high car sales. With cars lasting so long, it was inevitable sales would slow. This is temporary until the next upcycle. OR....gas goes through the roof and GM is caught flatfooted.

 

[philipp10]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by grampi
The SUV/CUV thing is a "cool factor" thing. People think they're cool when they really aren't....they're just going along with the rest of the sheeple because they want to "fit in"...a lot like people who buy Harleys...


Wait, are you telling me I'm not cool??? And here I thought I bought the Jeep because it had 475HP, 4x4 and decent ground clearance so I could drive it year-round. Guess I should have kept the Charger then eh?

I'm in Minnesota....haven't seen the need for a 4 wd for years. Sure it's nice but hardly necessary. Heck I once drove a rear drive Tacoma for a 4 year period....winters and all.

 

[4WD]

Indeed … It's where you go … we have 18 miles of drive on beach … they maintain the first 3 miles meaning we are going at least 5 miles to get out of the hooligans …

On the way to my camp I have driven well over a mile when you can't see anything but water … you know deep/soft ditches are waiting for your mistakes … 4WD is just common sense for that …

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted by 4WD
Indeed … It's where you go … we have 18 miles of drive on beach … they maintain the first 3 miles meaning we are going at least 5 miles to get out of the hooligans …


Sounds like Crystal Beach

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by 02SE
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by 02SE

We recently got the wife a new SUV/CUV/SAC... whatever they are calling it today. Anyway, with an average annual snowfall of 500+" just a couple miles away, we get a fair amount of snow. Having AWD, snow tires, and 567 hp helps her get back up the hill quickly after shopping... It's also a nice tax write-off...

I think she's cool.

Very nice

X5 or X6 M-sled?


X6 M

We tried all of the competitors, including the Trackhawk. The Trackhawk is a touch quicker according to instrumented tests I've read, but driving both it's hard to tell a difference. We both preferred the X6 M driving dynamics. It doesn't feel like it weighs as much as it does. With the Pirelli Scorpion ice and snow tires, it does pretty well in winter conditions.


Awesome

I loved the design of those when they came out and I completely understand why you went that route.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by philipp10
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by grampi
The SUV/CUV thing is a "cool factor" thing. People think they're cool when they really aren't....they're just going along with the rest of the sheeple because they want to "fit in"...a lot like people who buy Harleys...


Wait, are you telling me I'm not cool??? And here I thought I bought the Jeep because it had 475HP, 4x4 and decent ground clearance so I could drive it year-round. Guess I should have kept the Charger then eh?

I'm in Minnesota....haven't seen the need for a 4 wd for years. Sure it's nice but hardly necessary. Heck I once drove a rear drive Tacoma for a 4 year period....winters and all.


Well, my buddy's F-150 (4x4) got buried on the way to the hunting camp, whilst the Jeep pawed its way through (and I was leading). If you didn't have 4x4, you weren't making it, period. Your 2WD Tacoma wouldn't have gotten across the field to the entrance. So it depends on where you are driving as 4WD noted.

Not everybody up here needs 4x4 either, but for our usage profile, it only makes sense. Before I had the Jeep, I would have taken the Expedition back there. Having one vehicle that was fun, could do the year-round thing and that kind of duty made the Jeep a good fit.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by 4WD
Indeed … It's where you go … we have 18 miles of drive on beach … they maintain the first 3 miles meaning we are going at least 5 miles to get out of the hooligans …

On the way to my camp I have driven well over a mile when you can't see anything but water … you know deep/soft ditches are waiting for your mistakes … 4WD is just common sense for that …

 

[DejaVue]

Originally Posted by grampi

If people were THAT concerned about practicality, they wouldn't be buying SUVs/CUVs either. Unless you're buying something huge like a Suburban or an Excursion (no longer made), these vehicles don't really have any more room in them than large sedans do, they just sit higher off the ground. If people actually wanted more room, there are minivans and full size vans for that. The SUV/CUV thing is a "cool factor" thing. People think they're cool when they really aren't....they're just going along with the rest of the sheeple because they want to "fit in"...a lot like people who buy Harleys...

I like big sedans, but the lack of trunk height can be a dealbreaker. Fold-down rear seat passthrough helps for long items, but it's really annoying to drive a full-size vehicle with a trunk opening that a walk-behind lawn mower or a chair may be too tall to wedge far enough in there to be safe to drive with.

And on that note, a hatchback can be more practical for hauling big objects than an SUV or minivan since a hatchback's hatch opening tends to have a taller, sometimes unlimited height if willing to drive with the hatch up.

It never made much practical sense why Americans like sedans so much over hatchbacks.

Even though newer SUVs get good mpg, I think that's somewhat of a non-factor at the moment as gas goes down to $2 a gallon.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Sedans have been extraordinarily style driven for a long time. Hatchbacks resembled station wagons too much to be desirable, since wagons themselves dropped dead.

Driving with a hatch open is a great idea only when you can drive with all windows open. Otherwise, you're going to get a good gulp of carbon monoxide. Same goes for CUVs and SUVs of course.

 

[DejaVue]

Originally Posted by DoubleWasp

Driving with a hatch open is a great idea only when you can drive with all windows open. Otherwise, you're going to get a good gulp of carbon monoxide. Same goes for CUVs and SUVs of course.

I don't understand the carbon monoxide part. If the car is moving, it's moving too fast for carbon monoxide to come in from the tailpipe. If the car is not moving, sitting in traffic, it's not emitting much since it's only at idle, and it wouldn't be any different than driving in city traffic with the windows down while other cars are nearby.

 

[DoubleWasp]

There's a thing literally called the "station wagon effect" caused by aerodynamics. The back of the vehicle is a giant low pressure area that causes air to be pushed into any opening at the back of the vehicle. The turbulence in this area unfortunately assures a constant exchange of air into the passenger area. All of it heavily contaminated with engine exhaust. Look in the owners manual of literally any wagon, hatch, or C/SUV and I promise you will find a dire warning about having a rear hatch or window open while the vehicle is in motion. The tailpipe is just chugging exhaust into this area, turning the vehicle into a sort of gas chamber, unless the windows are open to relieve the low pressure area.

This is not even limited only to cars. We deal with a lot of boat owners who call us for faulty carbon monoxide detectors, only to learn that it tells them in their owner's manual not to operate their boat in motion with the cabin door open. The same station wagon effect (yes, we call it that even in our industry) causes the engine exhaust to be sucked up the transom of the boat, across the deck, and right into the cabin, setting off the alarm.

I'm not going to be an alarmist and tell you that you're going to drop dead from this, but inhaling those gases at such a high concentration sure isn't good for you.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by philipp10
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Once your autonomous car shows up with free

on the seat a person might not think it's so great.


Yeah, who's going to clean up all those bodily fluids? Besides the regular ones, there's also snot, vomit, drool, blood etc.

people in other countries ride subways everyday.....do you honestly think everyone is sitting on "fluids"....


You do realize that Uber drivers deal with it all the time right? That's why they have vomit bags and complain that even if they charge the passenger $250 to clean up their mess, they still lose money because the car is out of action while it's being cleaned plus even if it's cleaned, maybe they don't get the smell out completely.

I've seen drunk people on the subways, late at night. There's a reason some of the seats are metal. Ours closes at a somewhat early hour and the drunks end up taking cabs or uber. That's probably why the back seat of a crown vic is easy to hose out.

Plus the subway is completely different than the back seat of car. People do in private what they won't do in public and even being in public doesn't stop certain people.

 

[DoubleWasp]

If autonomous cars catch on, the solutions will present themselves, even if it includes having cameras watching the passengers (which a lot of uber and lyft drivers do anyway). People do things in private that they would never do in public, but people do things in public that they would neeeeeeeever do in front of a camera.

As autonomous cars become more of a thing and the cash machine revs up, government will get involved to keep that machine running as smoothly as possible. I can hardly see this being the straw that breaks the camel's back. Even if they have to have soiled cars return to home base for cleanings, or whatever. They're going to figure it out to get the cash.

 

[emg]

Originally Posted by philipp10

people in other countries ride subways everyday.....do you honestly think everyone is sitting on "fluids"....


There was a study of London Underground train seats a few years ago. You probably don't want to read it if you ever plan to travel on the London Underground.

Certainly when I used to use it regularly in the 90s, there were plenty of seats I refused to sit on because it was hard to tell exactly what the dark patch covering half the seat might be. I can only imagine it's become far worse since London stopped being an English city.

 

[emg]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Not everybody up here needs 4x4 either, but for our usage profile, it only makes sense. Before I had the Jeep, I would have taken the Expedition back there. Having one vehicle that was fun, could do the year-round thing and that kind of duty made the Jeep a good fit.


Our Civic does fine around the city on winter tires. Except there are days when it can't get in or out of the garage in the winter due to the icy ruts in the alley, whereas the Forester's extra ground clearance and AWD means it can roll right over them.

The day the neighbours had to help push the Civic into the garage because it couldn't get over the ruts on its own was the day I decided we needed an SUV for our next vehicle.

 

[4WD]

Why not ignore overall results … and comment way too early on tariffs … deals are still in motion …
GM is not selling cars at a profit … Period … Look at the people who put vehicles in signatures here …
What do you guys want … more deals like KORUS that doubled an existing deficit in 4 years …
And when the competition is all gone … those vehicles will not be cheap … dumping worked …
Lastly … without selling our food raised on subsidies … far worse deficits than that …

 

[DoubleWasp]

Thread going to die on page 10 for P violations?

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted by philipp10
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by grampi
The SUV/CUV thing is a "cool factor" thing. People think they're cool when they really aren't....they're just going along with the rest of the sheeple because they want to "fit in"...a lot like people who buy Harleys...


Wait, are you telling me I'm not cool??? And here I thought I bought the Jeep because it had 475HP, 4x4 and decent ground clearance so I could drive it year-round. Guess I should have kept the Charger then eh?

I'm in Minnesota....haven't seen the need for a 4 wd for years. Sure it's nice but hardly necessary. Heck I once drove a rear drive Tacoma for a 4 year period....winters and all.


Here in Utah they do a wonderful job of plowing the streets. However-when you need AWD/4 wheel drive-you need it. For example-the streets get plowed by the cities/state quickly. But the private parking lots, (movies, restaurants, etc.) are done by private contractors and they are not as efficient. That's when it's convenient to have a vehicle that can handle the snow. And with the AWD-there is hardly any penalty the rest of the year for having the running gear when you need it.

Yes-you could get by with snow tires-but then depending on if you buy an additional set of wheels for your snow tires-you have basically paid at least half of the option of AWD.

 

[DejaVue]

Originally Posted by CKN

And with the AWD-there is hardly any penalty the rest of the year for having the running gear when you need it.

Depends on various factors I guess, including a person's definition of "hardly."

Let's say AWD costs 2-3 mpg. At 10k miles a year, that's $100 a year. Drive more, or have to use premium gas, etc, $150+ every year.

And then there are two more axles to potentially wear out. A driveshaft and its bearings to potentially wear out. More fluids to change (minor thing but it is a thing). Transfer cases. Some vehicle AWDs also have computer modules, extra gear boxes, etc.

New is less of a problem when it comes to breakage, but I've considered multiple AWD used vehicles based on how easy the AWD system is to fix if it breaks, as well as if the AWD can be bypassed altogether if I choose such as if it acts up or the driveshaft goes bad. A replacement driveshaft can be a bit pricey, if available at all.

I've driven in my share of snow, and it's funny to me now that I mainly would want AWD not for winter driving, but instead of FWD for summer driving to speed off fast from stoplights without spinning the tires, assuming the vehicle is relatively fast.

Speaking of cars being phased out for SUVs... regular car ground clearance is usually fine the majority of the time, though it's easy to see that SUV ground clearance can have benefits. While driving an AWD car, mere slippery snow was no match for it, but I did beach it on a snow drift that blew in the middle of the road. Thought I could just drive over/through it like usual, but it was long enough and tall enough that it acted as a hydraulic lift in a repair shop, lifting the middle of the car so that the wheels basically were off the ground.

 

[JTK]

^ AWD is for sure not needed. Nice to have, but if you've purchased any late model, smaller, lightweight CUV with AWD lately, they come with lower profile, low rolling resistance street tires. To me, this totally negates the usefulness of AWD and I've experienced it with all 3 of my later model Subaru purchases. The AWD was worthless with the factory rubber. My point is, like said above, snow tires alone will transform any FWD or RWD to an excellent winter vehicle.

Another concern with AWD like mentioned above, with the way product lines change over so quickly, who's to say you'll find the AWD parts you may need down the road? Those unobtainable extra parts are going to send vehicles to the scrap yard faster than a non AWD as time goes on. Guaranteed.