No more Cruze, Impala, etc.

[grampi]

Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
GM and Ford can't win in the PR department anymore.

They're withdrawing from a market that is tanking before it tanks, and that's a problem somehow.

I don't blame parents for abandoning sedans, either. I know a few who have to deal with car seats in a sedan, and those rear doors have gotten so small, and those roof lines have gotten so low, that it isn't worth it. If I had kids, there's no way I'd go shopping for a sedan. Not about being a bad parent, so much as a smart one. The stereotype is that anyone who buys an SUV must be dumb, but that does not bear out in reality.

Sedans signed their own death certificates when they all started shying away from size, and tried looking like sportscars. The rear seat accommodations are awful in most.

Throw in the more active lifestyles of many folks, and the sedan looks absolutely awful compared to the minivan or SUV. I know a guy who just dumped his sedan because he has 4 kids who have steadily dropped their electronics for bicycles on the weekends and he got sick of assembling and disassembling bikes and bike carriers.

Gas prices will do what they do, but we no longer live in a world of truck based and large engined SUVs throwing down city fuel economy in the teens. Next go around, it won't be hitting the same market as 10 years ago.


If people were THAT concerned about practicality, they wouldn't be buying SUVs/CUVs either. Unless you're buying something huge like a Suburban or an Excursion (no longer made), these vehicles don't really have any more room in them than large sedans do, they just sit higher off the ground. If people actually wanted more room, there are minivans and full size vans for that. The SUV/CUV thing is a "cool factor" thing. People think they're cool when they really aren't....they're just going along with the rest of the sheeple because they want to "fit in"...a lot like people who buy Harleys...

 

[KalapanaBlack]

Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
GM and Ford can't win in the PR department anymore.

They're withdrawing from a market that is tanking before it tanks, and that's a problem somehow.

I don't blame parents for abandoning sedans, either. I know a few who have to deal with car seats in a sedan, and those rear doors have gotten so small, and those roof lines have gotten so low, that it isn't worth it. If I had kids, there's no way I'd go shopping for a sedan. Not about being a bad parent, so much as a smart one. The stereotype is that anyone who buys an SUV must be dumb, but that does not bear out in reality.

Sedans signed their own death certificates when they all started shying away from size, and tried looking like sportscars. The rear seat accommodations are awful in most.

Throw in the more active lifestyles of many folks, and the sedan looks absolutely awful compared to the minivan or SUV. I know a guy who just dumped his sedan because he has 4 kids who have steadily dropped their electronics for bicycles on the weekends and he got sick of assembling and disassembling bikes and bike carriers.

Gas prices will do what they do, but we no longer live in a world of truck based and large engined SUVs throwing down city fuel economy in the teens. Next go around, it won't be hitting the same market as 10 years ago.


If people were THAT concerned about practicality, they wouldn't be buying SUVs/CUVs either. Unless you're buying something huge like a Suburban or an Excursion (no longer made), these vehicles don't really have any more room in them than large sedans do, they just sit higher off the ground. If people actually wanted more room, there are minivans and full size vans for that. The SUV/CUV thing is a "cool factor" thing. People think they're cool when they really aren't....they're just going along with the rest of the sheeple because they want to "fit in"...a lot like people who buy Harleys...


Well, there's definitely a cargo space advantage for nearly all hatchbacks/wagons/SUVs versus sedans. And the flexibility of moving/folding seats.


I'm not a fan at all, and am legitimately fairly depressed by this. But, really, it was a business move (a bit of a brash one) that makes some financial sense for GM (and GM only).

And, really, haven't vehicle purchases always been made with the heart instead of the head, and with a healthy dose of heard mentality?

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted by KalapanaBlack
Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
GM and Ford can't win in the PR department anymore.

They're withdrawing from a market that is tanking before it tanks, and that's a problem somehow.

I don't blame parents for abandoning sedans, either. I know a few who have to deal with car seats in a sedan, and those rear doors have gotten so small, and those roof lines have gotten so low, that it isn't worth it. If I had kids, there's no way I'd go shopping for a sedan. Not about being a bad parent, so much as a smart one. The stereotype is that anyone who buys an SUV must be dumb, but that does not bear out in reality.

Sedans signed their own death certificates when they all started shying away from size, and tried looking like sportscars. The rear seat accommodations are awful in most.

Throw in the more active lifestyles of many folks, and the sedan looks absolutely awful compared to the minivan or SUV. I know a guy who just dumped his sedan because he has 4 kids who have steadily dropped their electronics for bicycles on the weekends and he got sick of assembling and disassembling bikes and bike carriers.

Gas prices will do what they do, but we no longer live in a world of truck based and large engined SUVs throwing down city fuel economy in the teens. Next go around, it won't be hitting the same market as 10 years ago.


If people were THAT concerned about practicality, they wouldn't be buying SUVs/CUVs either. Unless you're buying something huge like a Suburban or an Excursion (no longer made), these vehicles don't really have any more room in them than large sedans do, they just sit higher off the ground. If people actually wanted more room, there are minivans and full size vans for that. The SUV/CUV thing is a "cool factor" thing. People think they're cool when they really aren't....they're just going along with the rest of the sheeple because they want to "fit in"...a lot like people who buy Harleys...


Well, there's definitely a cargo space advantage for nearly all hatchbacks/wagons/SUVs versus sedans. And the flexibility of moving/folding seats.


I'm not a fan at all, and am legitimately fairly depressed by this. But, really, it was a business move (a bit of a brash one) that makes some financial sense for GM (and GM only).

And, really, haven't vehicle purchases always been made with the heart instead of the head, and with a healthy dose of heard mentality?


I don't know, most sedans have folding rear seats that open up to the trunk...like I said, most SUVs/CUVs I've been in really don't have any more room in them, they just sit higher...SUVs/CUVs are a fad...

 

[MarkM66]

Originally Posted by Blueskies123
The conspiracy theorist in may says they all plan to come out with a small self-driving vehicle in a few years so they want to clear the decks and start from scratch is some of their plants. Someone is going to get a colossal order from Uber for millions of small self-driving cars.



Sounds legit to me.

Or if the google car sells like mad, maybe GM will build for them too?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by grampi
The SUV/CUV thing is a "cool factor" thing. People think they're cool when they really aren't....they're just going along with the rest of the sheeple because they want to "fit in"...a lot like people who buy Harleys...


Wait, are you telling me I'm not cool??? And here I thought I bought the Jeep because it had 475HP, 4x4 and decent ground clearance so I could drive it year-round. Guess I should have kept the Charger then eh?

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by grampi
The SUV/CUV thing is a "cool factor" thing. People think they're cool when they really aren't....they're just going along with the rest of the sheeple because they want to "fit in"...a lot like people who buy Harleys...


Wait, are you telling me I'm not cool??? And here I thought I bought the Jeep because it had 475HP, 4x4 and decent ground clearance so I could drive it year-round. Guess I should have kept the Charger then eh?

In Canada, that's different. Here in the states (in most places anyway) getting around year around doesn't require an SUV...you guys get a lot more snow than we do..

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by grampi
The SUV/CUV thing is a "cool factor" thing. People think they're cool when they really aren't....they're just going along with the rest of the sheeple because they want to "fit in"...a lot like people who buy Harleys...


Wait, are you telling me I'm not cool??? And here I thought I bought the Jeep because it had 475HP, 4x4 and decent ground clearance so I could drive it year-round. Guess I should have kept the Charger then eh?

In Canada, that's different. Here in the states (in most places anyway) getting around year around doesn't require an SUV...you guys get a lot more snow than we do..


Typically yes, but many of the northern states are similar to us here in Ontario. I'm just bugging you because you made a generalization

While I agree that there are SUV's that folks buy just because they are "trendy", the same can be said for pickup trucks. Nothing like a bro'd out F250 with like a 12" lift and boggers that's 2WD and will never see anything that isn't asphalt.

While the "bro truck" phenomena drives me nuts due to the safety risk it presents, I believe that folks should be able to drive whatever they want as long as it doesn't threaten the safety of others. That means that "stance" cars are out, "dubs" are out...etc. When your contact patch is narrower than a bicycle, that's a safety concern, but if Martha wants an Expedition to drive to the mall, that's her choice and I fully support it. It isn't my business to judge her decision on vehicle selection.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by grampi
The SUV/CUV thing is a "cool factor" thing. People think they're cool when they really aren't....they're just going along with the rest of the sheeple because they want to "fit in"...a lot like people who buy Harleys...


Wait, are you telling me I'm not cool??? And here I thought I bought the Jeep because it had 475HP, 4x4 and decent ground clearance so I could drive it year-round. Guess I should have kept the Charger then eh?

In Canada, that's different. Here in the states (in most places anyway) getting around year around doesn't require an SUV...you guys get a lot more snow than we do..


Typically yes, but many of the northern states are similar to us here in Ontario. I'm just bugging you because you made a generalization

While I agree that there are SUV's that folks buy just because they are "trendy", the same can be said for pickup trucks. Nothing like a bro'd out F250 with like a 12" lift and boggers that's 2WD and will never see anything that isn't asphalt.

While the "bro truck" phenomena drives me nuts due to the safety risk it presents, I believe that folks should be able to drive whatever they want as long as it doesn't threaten the safety of others. That means that "stance" cars are out, "dubs" are out...etc. When your contact patch is narrower than a bicycle, that's a safety concern, but if Martha wants an Expedition to drive to the mall, that's her choice and I fully support it. It isn't my business to judge her decision on vehicle selection.


Agreed, and if I want a sedan, then I should be able to buy one, but it looks like the big 3 are taking that choice away...

 

[supton]

Moving my trailers around in winter requires 4WD, it seems. Maybe not ground clearance so much. Although I have dragged the hitch on my car more times than I'd care to count.

Been a good year so far--not even December and I think we've gotten a foot of snow so far. Might have been the first white Thanksgiving I've seen--certainly was the coldest (and the news station said it was the coldest on record). Lots of dirt roads near me. Heck one of my driveways is on a dirt road (go figure, the 4WD truck parks out back).

Anyhow: on a hatchback one can drop the rear seat and then drop in a large box. Say dehumidifier, AC unit, or trashcans. Bit harder in a sedan. Not impossible, just harder. I have to move trashcans to the transfer station on a weekly basis. Personally I like my sedan as a daily driver, but my truck is my overgrown station wagon--I can easily see how an SUV/CUV is the logical merge of the two.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by grampi
The SUV/CUV thing is a "cool factor" thing. People think they're cool when they really aren't....they're just going along with the rest of the sheeple because they want to "fit in"...a lot like people who buy Harleys...


Wait, are you telling me I'm not cool??? And here I thought I bought the Jeep because it had 475HP, 4x4 and decent ground clearance so I could drive it year-round. Guess I should have kept the Charger then eh?

In Canada, that's different. Here in the states (in most places anyway) getting around year around doesn't require an SUV...you guys get a lot more snow than we do..


We recently got the wife a new SUV/CUV/SAC... whatever they are calling it today. Anyway, with an average annual snowfall of 500+" just a couple miles away, we get a fair amount of snow. Having AWD, snow tires, and 567 hp helps her get back up the hill quickly after shopping... It's also a nice tax write-off...

I think she's cool.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by 02SE
Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by grampi
The SUV/CUV thing is a "cool factor" thing. People think they're cool when they really aren't....they're just going along with the rest of the sheeple because they want to "fit in"...a lot like people who buy Harleys...


Wait, are you telling me I'm not cool??? And here I thought I bought the Jeep because it had 475HP, 4x4 and decent ground clearance so I could drive it year-round. Guess I should have kept the Charger then eh?

In Canada, that's different. Here in the states (in most places anyway) getting around year around doesn't require an SUV...you guys get a lot more snow than we do..


We recently got the wife a new SUV/CUV/SAC... whatever they are calling it today. Anyway, with an average annual snowfall of 500+" just a couple miles away, we get a fair amount of snow. Having AWD, snow tires, and 567 hp helps her get back up the hill quickly after shopping... It's also a nice tax write-off...

I think she's cool.

Good point. It's not where you live, it's where you go.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by 02SE

We recently got the wife a new SUV/CUV/SAC... whatever they are calling it today. Anyway, with an average annual snowfall of 500+" just a couple miles away, we get a fair amount of snow. Having AWD, snow tires, and 567 hp helps her get back up the hill quickly after shopping... It's also a nice tax write-off...

I think she's cool.

Very nice

X5 or X6 M-sled?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
GM and Ford can't win in the PR department anymore.

They're withdrawing from a market that is tanking before it tanks, and that's a problem somehow.

I'm not going to jump up and down and say how exciting the Camry or Civic or Accord are. Clearly, though, the Japanese have done something to get people to drive their sedans, something that the North American makes haven't been able to do.

Now, a Q50 sedan actually does have some excitement.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
GM and Ford can't win in the PR department anymore.

They're withdrawing from a market that is tanking before it tanks, and that's a problem somehow.

I don't blame parents for abandoning sedans, either. I know a few who have to deal with car seats in a sedan, and those rear doors have gotten so small, and those roof lines have gotten so low, that it isn't worth it. If I had kids, there's no way I'd go shopping for a sedan. Not about being a bad parent, so much as a smart one. The stereotype is that anyone who buys an SUV must be dumb, but that does not bear out in reality.

Sedans signed their own death certificates when they all started shying away from size, and tried looking like sportscars. The rear seat accommodations are awful in most.

Throw in the more active lifestyles of many folks, and the sedan looks absolutely awful compared to the minivan or SUV. I know a guy who just dumped his sedan because he has 4 kids who have steadily dropped their electronics for bicycles on the weekends and he got sick of assembling and disassembling bikes and bike carriers.

Gas prices will do what they do, but we no longer live in a world of truck based and large engined SUVs throwing down city fuel economy in the teens. Next go around, it won't be hitting the same market as 10 years ago.


If people were THAT concerned about practicality, they wouldn't be buying SUVs/CUVs either. Unless you're buying something huge like a Suburban or an Excursion (no longer made), these vehicles don't really have any more room in them than large sedans do, they just sit higher off the ground. If people actually wanted more room, there are minivans and full size vans for that. The SUV/CUV thing is a "cool factor" thing. People think they're cool when they really aren't....they're just going along with the rest of the sheeple because they want to "fit in"...a lot like people who buy Harleys...


If people were more practical, the GM B-Body wagons would still live. I've proven time and again that my Caprice and Roadmaster wagons will hold more common items (groceries, luggage, etc) than everything but an Excursion or Suburban.

It's not solely the cool factor driving things though. If you need to handle something like a car seat or a stroller, the SUV and many CUV give you a nice square like rear door, with the seat close to your waist. You're bending down less to pick it up or set it in. Same goes for the child. When you do go to lift or lower, you have less roofline directly in your face, or not at all. Same goes for the back. Does one want to put a stroller onto a shelf close to waist-height, with a door that opens up completely out of one's way, merely by sweeping their foot under? Or do they want to grab a key or fob, or hit a button to open a trunk with a nearly face level clearance, and drop into or lift something out of what is essentially a pit?

The SUV and CUV advantage is not a size issue so much as it is a geometry and architectural issue. Back when sedans were large, and available with a wagon back end, this wasn't an issue. With the design of the modern sedan, it is.

 

[Traction]

I don't know how it is in Germany now, but when I spent a week there 20 years ago flying on the Autobahn at 130, I never saw a pickup truck, or big anything. Quite a few camping trailers being pulled by cars at limited speeds. Too bad nobody in this country knows how to drive, because if they did they wouldn't be driving the newest overdone S/CUV. Sedans are where it's at. My cop Tahoe on cop tires is certified to go 130+ forward, and 45mph in reverse though. It is not much different in size, and the same wheelbase as my 1955 Chevy 2 door sedan, which could carry 6 passengers instead of 5, and had just as much room in the trunk.

 

[edyvw]

This SUV trend is ridiculous.
My beloved X5 35d became too small, so was thinking Audi Q7, MB GL or Durango. In the figured they are just a bit bigger than X5, and while it would solve some issues that involve 2 child seats and visiting family, it is not big improvement. SO I got minivan.
Now interesting thing is I tried both Highlander and Pilot, two bestseller SUV's, and minivan drives better than both of those. On top of that, because no one wants now minivan, and want SUV (apparently people think they are cool driving Toyota Highlander or Honda Pilot, they are not) I got used 2015 SIenna for like 4-5k cheaper than used Highlander same year and milage.
Go figure.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Traction
I don't know how it is in Germany now, but when I spent a week there 20 years ago flying on the Autobahn at 130, I never saw a pickup truck, or big anything. Quite a few camping trailers being pulled by cars at limited speeds. Too bad nobody in this country knows how to drive, because if they did they wouldn't be driving the newest overdone S/CUV. Sedans are where it's at. My cop Tahoe on cop tires is certified to go 130+ forward, and 45mph in reverse though.


The X6M, Grand Cherokee SRT, AMG GLx series...etc are all SUV's that handle quite well (the latter two being based on the same platform). I'm sure there's an Audi and Porsche mention that can be added to the list.

A high(er) centre of gravity is certainly a hindrance, but platform dynamics play a huge role.

 

[Traction]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Traction
I don't know how it is in Germany now, but when I spent a week there 20 years ago flying on the Autobahn at 130, I never saw a pickup truck, or big anything. Quite a few camping trailers being pulled by cars at limited speeds. Too bad nobody in this country knows how to drive, because if they did they wouldn't be driving the newest overdone S/CUV. Sedans are where it's at. My cop Tahoe on cop tires is certified to go 130+ forward, and 45mph in reverse though.


The X6M, Grand Cherokee SRT, AMG GLx series...etc are all SUV's that handle quite well (the latter two being based on the same platform). I'm sure there's an Audi and Porsche mention that can be added to the list.

A high(er) centre of gravity is certainly a hindrance, but platform dynamics play a huge role.

Don't forget about the weight of all that kinetic energy that has to move in 3 different directions.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Traction
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Traction
I don't know how it is in Germany now, but when I spent a week there 20 years ago flying on the Autobahn at 130, I never saw a pickup truck, or big anything. Quite a few camping trailers being pulled by cars at limited speeds. Too bad nobody in this country knows how to drive, because if they did they wouldn't be driving the newest overdone S/CUV. Sedans are where it's at. My cop Tahoe on cop tires is certified to go 130+ forward, and 45mph in reverse though.


The X6M, Grand Cherokee SRT, AMG GLx series...etc are all SUV's that handle quite well (the latter two being based on the same platform). I'm sure there's an Audi and Porsche mention that can be added to the list.

A high(er) centre of gravity is certainly a hindrance, but platform dynamics play a huge role.

Don't forget about the weight of all that kinetic energy that has to move in 3 different directions.


True, but none of those are Expedition/Escalade heavy. My old Charger SRT was pretty porky as was my M5, yet both handled quite well.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by 02SE

We recently got the wife a new SUV/CUV/SAC... whatever they are calling it today. Anyway, with an average annual snowfall of 500+" just a couple miles away, we get a fair amount of snow. Having AWD, snow tires, and 567 hp helps her get back up the hill quickly after shopping... It's also a nice tax write-off...

I think she's cool.

Very nice

X5 or X6 M-sled?


X6 M

We tried all of the competitors, including the Trackhawk. The Trackhawk is a touch quicker according to instrumented tests I've read, but driving both it's hard to tell a difference. We both preferred the X6 M driving dynamics. It doesn't feel like it weighs as much as it does. With the Pirelli Scorpion ice and snow tires, it does pretty well in winter conditions.